How to connect basement surface trench drain to sump? pics.

[FM1]

How would you get the water from the wall perimeter trench drain, coming from the right, into the sump basin?

Old house. Has probably had that trench drain at the wall(s) for 50+ years. It looks like the floor concrete is only 2-3 inches higher than the base of the footer, and the trench is dug to the base of the footer. There's no trench on the left side of the pictures.

The sump pit hole and basin are new. Between the basin and the wall is where the old wood "basin box" used to be, which was only about 12 inches wide and 12 inches deep. The trench water ran into that, and a sump pump pumped it out. The old basin box was where the current clay-looking soil now is. That's just packed there for now since otherwise there would be a 12 x 12 empty space there underground alongside the wall.

Assuming the clay soil is removed and most/all of the area will be filled with 3/4 minus or similar gravel to 3" below the current concrete floor level, and then most/all of it concreted over, how to get the trench water to the sump pit? A surface drain (then piped under new concrete to the basin) would have to be 3" below the surface of the concrete since that's the level of the drain trench. I'm thinking that's the best way, and then put an access cover over the top that's flush with the concrete floor to make it look pretty.

If a 3" or 4" pipe is installed a few inches from the wall and into the basin and water enters horizontally, the pipe would have to be buried quite a bit lower than the trench to be below the level of concrete floor put on top of it.

And should most of the clay-ish soil even be replaced with gravel? Wouldn't that promote drainage coming from under that footer area 12 inches deep which could potentially drain away the fines and weaken the footer area? Or maybe gravel + filter fabric is good, and potentially draining water from under that area of footer would be similar to drilling weep holes in the block. ? That wall could use some help like that.

Would removing the clay-ish soil 12 x 12 area and filling that entire subfloor area with concrete instead of gravel strengthen the foundation in that spot?

Since the ugly trench is there and water travels across its surface already, maybe concrete the entire area except deeply dip and slope the concrete from the trench to the basin? It'd be a surface swale, and no drains or pipes needed. That'd probably look really goofy but just tossing it out there since maybe someone's done it. haha

 

[WorthFlorida]

There are several ways to handle the ground water. With drainage pipes under the floor or around the foundation, slope is not to important since you want all of the drainage pipe to be doing its job. To deep and it might be below the water. Even with a level pipe as water rises inside the pipe, it will drain to the sump pit, wherever gravity takes it. The drainage pipe does not have to drain dry as in a septic sewer pipe.

Ideally you want maybe 5-6 inches of gravel below the concrete floor to bury the drainage pipe. Depending on the water level below the floor, you may want the entire floor area or just the perimeter to drain. No one can tell you the condition of your foundation if any work near it could compromise it stability except an engineer. A small section repair as in you question may not help at all.

Another is a drainage system outside the home at the base of the foundation will always help if there isn't one now.

At one time having a home in Algonquin, Il, I had the same heavy clay soil. What I learned is when the clay soil is dry, it shrinks and pulls away from the foundation wall. With a rain event water will run down the gap between the wall and clay soil. As the clay gets wet it swells. My sump pump during a rain event the water would literally pour into the sump and during dry times there always was a small amount always draining. Since you have a old home, the water level and the drainage needs is probably very stable.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[FM1]

I would have replied sooner, but I don't see any email reply alert anywhere including in my spam and trash folders. Anyway, I know my first post was rather involved, so I'll try to clarify.

Even if all the clay-ish soil stays where it currently is, it won't swell against the footer because even as-is in the picture it's only as high as the bottom of the footer.

That 12" x 12" x 12" or so cube of the clay is where the old, small, sump basin used to be in the ground. When that basin was removed, there was then of course nothing there anymore in the ground against the soil that's under that area of the footer. The clay was put there for now so there's something filling up the space to keep the soil under that section of footer from eroding.

A drainage professional said instead of the 12" or so cube of clay currently there, put gravel there to help with drainage. I wanted some more opinions on that because to me having gravel that deep would not only help underground water flow (good) but it would probably also help the soil from under that section of footer flow and so erode the soil under the footer (very bad). Unless maybe if filter fabric was put between the new gravel and the side of the soil under the footer, maybe that would be fine.
--------------------------------------------
That aside, my main actual-plumbing question was about how to get the water from the current inside perimeter trench to the sump basin and have it look good. It's an almost-surface perimeter trench. The bottom of the footer and the top of the concrete floor are about the same height. So a big pipe can't just go straight out of the sump basin and be covered with concrete since the water in the trench (and the trench itself) is so much higher near the surface of the concrete floor.

This situation is similar to the basement interior perimeter "box drainage systems" in various youtube videos that usually only have 1" or less of concrete put over the top since the box drain tile is installed so shallow.

Since the trench drain is staying, I was thinking put a probably 3" surface drain in where I drew it in the picture, 90-degree it below and pipe it to the sump basin one foot away. And then all the rest of the surface area would be concrete, except between the surface drain and the wall since that's where the trench is. That's where the water coming from the right side currently flows. The concrete on the 3 sides of the surface drain would then be about 2" to 3" higher than the surface drain, since that's how low the surface drain would need to be for the water from the perimeter trench drain to flow into.

Otherwise, instead of a surface drain, maybe put basically part of a "box system" drain tile there that would have a rectangular opening that collects water from the trench. It'd be in the same spot as the surface drain would otherwise be, it'd just be more like a 1" or 2" tall by 3 or 4" wide rectangular side opening for the incoming trench water. And then it would 90-degree twice to connect into the sump basin.

It's a bit daunting when there's no write-ups or videos about a specific situation, but the more I talk about it, the more straightforward it sounds, and I just have to pick my poison on what kind of drain inlet to put there.

 

[Tuttles Revenge]

TLR.. But sometimes just writing something out is the best way to work something out in your head as you alluded to.

the drain tile can enter the sump anywhere below the lid and above the bottom.. but preferably above the level at which the pump turns on so you don't have standing water in the drain tile and pump at the same time.

Any pipe that is embedded in concrete will cause the concrete to crack along the line of the pipe.

Preventing water from getting into the house in the first place is the best way to keep basements dry. A good exterior drainage system is 1000% times better than an interior system.