Got water test results back...recommended treatment?

[Reach4]

DLFC ( drain line flow control) is orifice that sets the backwash flow rate. This is often called a button because it is a little round replaceable element that is chosen to get the desired flow.

IIRC = If I Remember Correctly

 

[Gary Slusser]

Yes I screwed up my math and said 12 lbs when it should have been 15 lbs; I corrected the error before I saw you found it, good catch.

No you don't have to regenerate more often than I showed you but you should use Iron Out every 4-6 weeks. Mix a 1/2 cup in 2 gals or water, wait 2 hrs and do a manual regeneration on your way to bed.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[stockman20]

Yes I screwed up my math and said 12 lbs when it should have been 15 lbs; I corrected the error before I saw you found it, good catch.

No you don't have to regenerate more often than I showed you but you should use Iron Out every 4-6 weeks. Mix a 1/2 cup in 2 gals or water, wait 2 hrs and do a manual regeneration on your way to bed.

Many thanks.

Would you recommend any specific valve for a 2.5cuft? I noticed from another post of yours that you wouldn't recommend the 5600sxt. And, once again...now that I have my size picked out is there any point in getting a valve that does counter-current or getting a tank with a turbulator? Again...I'm hoping to solve my hardness and iron problems with a correctly-sized softener without an iron filter.

 

[Gary Slusser]

Fleck says the 5600 as a softener valve should not be used on larger than a 12" dia tank which is a 2.0 cuft.

I do not like counter current for residential applications and especially with iron such as yours. The only way it works well is with a packed bed that is not allowed to expand (no backwash) and that is not good for iron or many people with wells.

I used a Turbulator dist. tube when the iron was 5 ppm or more but, you can not use a gravel underbed with them and thereby you lose more benefits than you gain, so I would not suggest one for your water.

 

[stockman20]

I don't agree. It's more likely that it is caused by the sulfates, alkalinity, TDS, etc., or a combination of things. Since it is powdery, it probably is sulfates.

It immediately disolves when water touches it. Maybe it is salt?

 

[Mikey]

What does it taste like?

 

[stockman20]

Fleck says the 5600 as a softener valve should not be used on larger than a 12" dia tank which is a 2.0 cuft.

I do not like counter current for residential applications and especially with iron such as yours. The only way it works well is with a packed bed that is not allowed to expand (no backwash) and that is not good for iron or many people with wells.

I used a Turbulator dist. tube when the iron was 5 ppm or more but, you can not use a gravel underbed with them and thereby you lose more benefits than you gain, so I would not suggest one for your water.

Gary,
Any particular valve(s) that you would recommend for a 2.5cuft? Also, I'm curious, how confident are you that a 2.5cuft softener will take care of my iron problems without an additional iron filter...given my water conditions? I'd like to get this right the first time, because my understanding is that I should be putting in a smaller softener if I have an iron filter before it.

Thanks again,

 

[Gary Slusser]

The 2510, 2750 or 7000.

How confident am I... I don't suggest things unless I'm confident they will work. I have had customers as far back as the early 1990s that have used softeners with your and much higher levels of iron in their water. You either use a resin cleaner or buy a separate iron filter along with the SFR sized softener you need for your family's peak demand water flow based on how you use water in your house. That is not like having all fixtures running full open like codes call for. Then you adjust the K of capacity to what you need without the iron; just the hardness. But you can buy like a 1/2 cuft softener if ya wanna, it won't work well but it would cost less than a 2.5 cuft. BTW, using two pieces of equipment when one works seems to me to be where the extra cost comes from.

 

[stockman20]

As I said: If you have IRB and it causes a problem like fouling softener resin, you must kill it. You can shock the well, or chlorinate before the softener, or disinfect the softener to do that. Shocking a well can cause problems with water quality although rare, chlorinating all your water is expensive equipment and the softener may have been smaller with no iron, no iron because the chlorination and a backwashed filter would remove it and kill all forms of bacteria.

Your "a bit oily" may mean there is some manganese reducing bacteria or it could be the IRB.

I suggest running Iron Out/Super IO through the softener... and then test your hardness every day until the day after the next regeneration. You want to see 0 gpg soft water every day. If not then increase the salt dose a couple lbs. do a manual regeneration and redo the testing every day until the day after the next regen. To do the IO, mix a 1/4 cup (dry measure) in 2 gallons of warm water, mix thoroughly and pour the water down into the water in the salt tank, not through the salt. Don't breath the fumes. Wait 2 hrs and do a manual regeneration or... do this on the way to bed and schedule a manual regeneration (Extra Regeneration maybe) that will start at 2 AM and you don't need to stand around for two hrs.

I also suggest you remove the prefilter cartridge from its housing so the softener gets the proper pressure and flow it needs.

Gary,

I've done the above test. I've found that on average (even with only two week's data) the softener regenerates every third night. I've set it to regen at 10pm so I'm still awake to know when it does. Hardness is always 0 gpg. With my cabnet softener the configuration options are limited, but I've turned off the "salt efficiency mode" and set the hardness to 60gpg. That's about the extent of settings I can mess with.

I used Super IO in the softener on Jan 1 and also used it in the toilet bowls to start from scratch. I'm now noticing staining in the toilet bowls again...

Is it possible iron is still bleeding through the softener even though the water is soft? Maybe I'm exceeding the SFR...

 

[Gary Slusser]

I don't know if it is or isn't but a test for iron after the softener would tell us if iron is getting through the softener... and the sample should be taken as close to the outlet of the softener as possible.

Yes it's possible that you are running more gpm through the softener than it can remove all the hardness and iron from. It is also possible that you have something after the softener that is adding iron back into the softened water. That would be a water heater tank or a piece of galvanized pipe or a nipple. I suppose it's also possible that IRB is dying in the plumbing/toilet tanks and bowls and releasing iron into the water.

 

[stockman20]

I don't know if it is or isn't but a test for iron after the softener would tell us if iron is getting through the softener... and the sample should be taken as close to the outlet of the softener as possible.

Yes it's possible that you are running more gpm through the softener than it can remove all the hardness and iron from. It is also possible that you have something after the softener that is adding iron back into the softened water. That would be a water heater tank or a piece of galvanized pipe or a nipple. I suppose it's also possible that IRB is dying in the plumbing/toilet tanks and bowls and releasing iron into the water.

Yeah, I've only used the toilets as a test because our water heater is 27 years old and is probably coated with iron inside. I'm ready to replace it, but wanted to fix our iron problems first so that I don't foul up a new one.

All the piping that I can see is copper. Maybe you're on to something with the IRB. I've ordered a 2.5cuft to be installed, so we'll see.

 

[stockman20]

Yes I screwed up my math and said 12 lbs when it should have been 15 lbs; I corrected the error before I saw you found it, good catch.

No you don't have to regenerate more often than I showed you but you should use Iron Out every 4-6 weeks. Mix a 1/2 cup in 2 gals or water, wait 2 hrs and do a manual regeneration on your way to bed.

Hey Gary (or anyone else) -

Is your recommended dose of SIO based on a certain cuft? Do you recommend a certain dose per cuft? The back of the container says to use 1 cup with only 1 gallon of water, which seems like WAY too much. -thanks

 

[Gary Slusser]

I go by how much iron and the volume of resin and experience. It's hard to get it wrong as long as you use more than needed. Using 2 gallons of water makes the softener regenerate with more salt (6 lbs more), and that helps clean the resin. It also means all the IO/SIO dissolves before you pour it in the water in the salt tank.

 

[stockman20]

I go by how much iron and the volume of resin and experience. It's hard to get it wrong as long as you use more than needed. Using 2 gallons of water makes the softener regenerate with more salt (6 lbs more), and that helps clean the resin. It also means all the IO/SIO dissolves before you pour it in the water in the salt tank.

Thanks, Gary. Had the unit installed last Monday. The thing is a monster.

 

[Gary Slusser]

Nah, a 6.0 cuft is a monster when installed in a residence.

 

[stockman20]

The verdict is still out on this one, but I bought a Hach iron test kit and tested my water last night. Results show between 0-0.20ppm. Hach explained to me that showing a reading of 0ppm is basically impossible since techically I could have 0.0000001ppm of iron - so I guess my test result is as good as it gets.

I need to wait a couple more weeks before I confirm that the staining has not returned, however I have thought of another question for this forum.

After adding/replacing equipment to remove iron do the pipes in a house need to be cleaned? As in, is it possible that there is iron built up in my copper pipes that now needs to somehow be removed so that staining does not return? If so, how is this done?

Thanks!

 

[ditttohead]

Yes, the pipes can have considerable iron buildup in them. There are a few ways to deal with this. Cleaing the pipes with Bleach, which I dont recommend since it makes the iron more permanent and less likely to release into the water, but with clean soft water, it will return. The other way is to ignore it, as long as your water coming out of the treatment equipment is good, the iron will lessen over time. Or a simple acid cleaning of the pipes with a safe mild acid. White Vinegar is commonly used since it is safer than other acids that if accidentally ingested due to dead legs in the plumbing etc, it may taste bad, but at least you know it is food grade. A solution of Vinegar flushed through the plumbing, similar to how you would clean a tankless water heater should suffice. My old house had red water for a very long time after the softener was installed. The water was great coming out of the softener, but the old pipes had so much build up on them that it was over 6 months of use before the water started to run clear.

 

[Reach4]

Non-expert ideas:
If you have build up in the pipes, I would expect you would also have build-up in the water heater. You might consider flushing your water heater, and maybe put some Super Iron Out in there. Then send that slowly out of your hot water faucets, treating your pipes a bit on the way out.

Then drain. Refill, repeat. Repeat. Repeat. In some of my fills I used a 1/2 inch ID hose to be able to control some spray to the sides and be more turbulent than the regular fill tube.

I pulled my anode with the help of a 5/8 inch impact wrench, and poured things in there. I used phosphoric acid and laundry detergent in different phases. I ended by installing a powered anode hand tight plus maybe 1/4 turn. I used teflon tape, but I checked to make sure there was good electrical contact. I am not sure that what I did was best, but it seemed to work OK. I got stuff flushing out. Phosphoric acid is a food ingredient in very low concentration. The 40% concentration stuff is strong, but not nearly as hard on people as muriatic.

Of course I ran 100 ppm or so chlorine through everything during my well shock treatment, but I was not doing that for rust purposes.

 

[stockman20]

Yes, the pipes can have considerable iron buildup in them. There are a few ways to deal with this. Cleaing the pipes with Bleach, which I dont recommend since it makes the iron more permanent and less likely to release into the water, but with clean soft water, it will return. The other way is to ignore it, as long as your water coming out of the treatment equipment is good, the iron will lessen over time. Or a simple acid cleaning of the pipes with a safe mild acid. White Vinegar is commonly used since it is safer than other acids that if accidentally ingested due to dead legs in the plumbing etc, it may taste bad, but at least you know it is food grade. A solution of Vinegar flushed through the plumbing, similar to how you would clean a tankless water heater should suffice. My old house had red water for a very long time after the softener was installed. The water was great coming out of the softener, but the old pipes had so much build up on them that it was over 6 months of use before the water started to run clear.

Thanks Ditto - can you please clarify this statement: "Cleaing the pipes with Bleach, which I dont recommend since it makes the iron more permanent and less likely to release into the water, but with clean soft water, it will return."
It sounds like you mean if I did this it wouldn't clean the pipes but make everything in them permanent? If this is the case it doesn't seem like an option at all.

 

[ditttohead]

Bleach is commonly used to oxidize iron, or to change it from a dissolved ferrous state to a solid ferric state. Once it is in the ferric state, it can be filtered out with standard filtration, typically in the 5 micron range is adequate. Oxidized iron in your pipes can be a ferric build-up. Using bleach can further lock the iron into the pipes. The same way bleach does not work well at removing iron stains from a sink, but a mild acid does it with ease. Once bleached, the iron can be much harder to dissolve and can give the appearance of having cleaned the pipes. Some people recommend using iron cleaners, CLR, etc for this process, it will work, but from a simple liability standpoint, vinegar is the preferred method. Using an edible item for cleaning makes for a much safer cleaning process. Vinegar takes a little longer, but it is very effective. A one time cleaning with a mild acid will not damage copper pipe that is in good condition. Just like the copper heat exchanger in a tankless water heater, intermittent cleaning will not hurt it.

Hope this helps.