Florida shallow well for lawn irrigation

[DMS]

Hi: I bought a home in the pinella's county area of Florida, it has town water and an existing well for lawn irrigation. The well has not been producing enough water. I'm not knowledgeable about wells, and am looking for advice on what to do. The previous owner said the well is 20 years old and has four points. He gave me an approximate location of the points, he's not sure how deep the points go. The well pump is about two years old. The lot size is approximately 10k feet, and there are seven zones of irrigation. The well pump seems to be set at 40 pounds of pressure. Some of the zones show 20 pounds of pressure when on, some other zones only show 10 pounds of pressure when on. I had a sprinkler/well guy over to take a look, he lives nearby. He thinks the low pressure is strictly because of low water output. He said he could go to the trouble of adding all new points, but said there was no guarantee on how long the new well would produce water, and recommended I either hook up the lawn irrigation system to town water, or look into having a deep well drilled. Both of those options are obviously very costly. It has been very dry lately, so it's possible that the water table will eventually come up a bit and maybe the irrigation system output will improve, but it's likely that a few of the zones still won't be producing enough water to properly operate the sprinkler heads.
Long story short, I'm thinking about either having all new points put in, or adding a couple points to the existing system if that's even possible, and wondered if anyone with experience could give me some input into the pros and cons of things. I might have another well person come by to take a look, it would be good to know exactly what I should be asking him. Thanks for any help

 

[WorthFlorida]

Yes, it has been fairly dry this winter In Florida and there is no magic to get a well working again.

Four points? Can't be very deep, maybe 20'. Other than a low water table, the points themselves could be clogged up. the only way to find them is start digging at the irrigation manifold or zone valve. What type of pump? Is it an irrigation pump or jet pump? There here are no pressure switches for an irrigation pump. Picture and model number could help. What size pump in HP? A 10k lot but how much of it is for turf? Once plants are established little water is needed but the turf does stress out especially if it's St. Augustine.

I would not waste money on new points since there is no way to know the depth and the water table. Seven zones tell me that it's a small pump. Irrigation pumps usually are 1, 1.5 or 2 HP. Pressure wise, zones with more heads will have lower pressure. I had a well installed in 1997 in Palm Beach Cointy. Up to 40 ft is shallow well but plenty of iron staining. My went down 83 feet and hit sulfur water. No iron stains and when it was on, it chased the kids away because of the stink. It was far cheaper than city water. At that time the well cost around $900. Pump about $150.

if you don't have the dollars for a new well, connecting to city water will be guaranteed that the system will work and not run out of water. However, a sprinkler guy probably will need to file a permit, changing things over to city water a backflow preventer will be needed. If you have a zone indexing valve, ditch it for a manifold. Indexing valves are hardly used anymore and replacement parts and new ones are harder to come by. A manifold takes a second to switch between zones where a zone indexing valve takes several minutes depending on the control you have.

With city water you'll need to watch that you don't over water because the water bill will be high. Here in Orange County, my monthly water bill is anywhere from $50-$70 per month and I'm on reclaimed water. If I do not irrigate the bill is around $55. Just the wife and I. I have a small yard, property is only 45x110 but about 1/3 of it is irrigated with four small zones.

If you get a well guy over, they usually are very knowledgeable of the water table in your area and what works best. Wells have become awfully expensive. you may already know that either on city water or your own well or lake, you're still restricted to the watering restrictions set by the water management district. Most are the same throughout the state.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[DMS]

Yes, it has been fairly dry this winter In Florida and there is no magic to get a well working again.

Four points? Can't be very deep, maybe 20'. Other than a low water table, the points themselves could be clogged up. the only way to find them is start digging at the irrigation manifold or zone valve. What type of pump? Is it an irrigation pump or jet pump? There here are no pressure switches for an irrigation pump. Picture and model number could help. What size pump in HP? A 10k lot but how much of it is for turf? Once plants are established little water is needed but the turf does stress out especially if it's St. Augustine.

I would not waste money on new points since there is no way to know the depth and the water table. Seven zones tell me that it's a small pump. Irrigation pumps usually are 1, 1.5 or 2 HP. Pressure wise, zones with more heads will have lower pressure. I had a well installed in 1997 in Palm Beach Cointy. Up to 40 ft is shallow well but plenty of iron staining. My went down 83 feet and hit sulfur water. No iron stains and when it was on, it chased the kids away because of the stink. It was far cheaper than city water. At that time the well cost around $900. Pump about $150.

if you don't have the dollars for a new well, connecting to city water will be guaranteed that the system will work and not run out of water. However, a sprinkler guy probably will need to file a permit, changing things over to city water a backflow preventer will be needed. If you have a zone indexing valve, ditch it for a manifold. Indexing valves are hardly used anymore and replacement parts and new ones are harder to come by. A manifold takes a second to switch between zones where a zone indexing valve takes several minutes depending on the control you have.

With city water you'll need to watch that you don't over water because the water bill will be high. Here in Orange County, my monthly water bill is anywhere from $50-$70 per month and I'm on reclaimed water. If I do not irrigate the bill is around $55. Just the wife and I. I have a small yard, property is only 45x110 but about 1/3 of it is irrigated with four small zones.

If you get a well guy over, they usually are very knowledgeable of the water table in your area and what works best. Wells have become awfully expensive. you may already know that either on city water or your own well or lake, you're still restricted to the watering restrictions set by the water management district. Most are the same throughou

Yes, it has been fairly dry this winter In Florida and there is no magic to get a well working again.

Four points? Can't be very deep, maybe 20'. Other than a low water table, the points themselves could be clogged up. the only way to find them is start digging at the irrigation manifold or zone valve. What type of pump? Is it an irrigation pump or jet pump? There here are no pressure switches for an irrigation pump. Picture and model number could help. What size pump in HP? A 10k lot but how much of it is for turf? Once plants are established little water is needed but the turf does stress out especially if it's St. Augustine.

I would not waste money on new points since there is no way to know the depth and the water table. Seven zones tell me that it's a small pump. Irrigation pumps usually are 1, 1.5 or 2 HP. Pressure wise, zones with more heads will have lower pressure. I had a well installed in 1997 in Palm Beach Cointy. Up to 40 ft is shallow well but plenty of iron staining. My went down 83 feet and hit sulfur water. No iron stains and when it was on, it chased the kids away because of the stink. It was far cheaper than city water. At that time the well cost around $900. Pump about $150.

if you don't have the dollars for a new well, connecting to city water will be guaranteed that the system will work and not run out of water. However, a sprinkler guy probably will need to file a permit, changing things over to city water a backflow preventer will be needed. If you have a zone indexing valve, ditch it for a manifold. Indexing valves are hardly used anymore and replacement parts and new ones are harder to come by. A manifold takes a second to switch between zones where a zone indexing valve takes several minutes depending on the control you have.

With city water you'll need to watch that you don't over water because the water bill will be high. Here in Orange County, my monthly water bill is anywhere from $50-$70 per month and I'm on reclaimed water. If I do not irrigate the bill is around $55. Just the wife and I. I have a small yard, property is only 45x110 but about 1/3 of it is irrigated with four small zones.

If you get a well guy over, they usually are very knowledgeable of the water table in your area and what works best. Wells have become awfully expensive. you may already know that either on city water or your own well or lake, you're still restricted to the watering restrictions set by the water management district. Most are the same throughout th

Yes, it has been fairly dry this winter In Florida and there is no magic to get a well working again.

Four points? Can't be very deep, maybe 20'. Other than a low water table, the points themselves could be clogged up. the only way to find them is start digging at the irrigation manifold or zone valve. What type of pump? Is it an irrigation pump or jet pump? There here are no pressure switches for an irrigation pump. Picture and model number could help. What size pump in HP? A 10k lot but how much of it is for turf? Once plants are established little water is needed but the turf does stress out especially if it's St. Augustine.

I would not waste money on new points since there is no way to know the depth and the water table. Seven zones tell me that it's a small pump. Irrigation pumps usually are 1, 1.5 or 2 HP. Pressure wise, zones with more heads will have lower pressure. I had a well installed in 1997 in Palm Beach Cointy. Up to 40 ft is shallow well but plenty of iron staining. My went down 83 feet and hit sulfur water. No iron stains and when it was on, it chased the kids away because of the stink. It was far cheaper than city water. At that time the well cost around $900. Pump about $150.

if you don't have the dollars for a new well, connecting to city water will be guaranteed that the system will work and not run out of water. However, a sprinkler guy probably will need to file a permit, changing things over to city water a backflow preventer will be needed. If you have a zone indexing valve, ditch it for a manifold. Indexing valves are hardly used anymore and replacement parts and new ones are harder to come by. A manifold takes a second to switch between zones where a zone indexing valve takes several minutes depending on the control you have.

With city water you'll need to watch that you don't over water because the water bill will be high. Here in Orange County, my monthly water bill is anywhere from $50-$70 per month and I'm on reclaimed water. If I do not irrigate the bill is around $55. Just the wife and I. I have a small yard, property is only 45x110 but about 1/3 of it is irrigated with four small zones.

If you get a well guy over, they usually are very knowledgeable of the water table in your area and what works best. Wells have become awfully expensive. you may already know that either on city water or your own well or lake, you're still restricted to the watering restrictions set by the water management district. Most are the same throughout the state.

WorthFlorida: Thanks for the reply, great info. Hooking up to town water is the easiest, but they get you for water coming in and water going out. My present monthly water bill is approx $50, but when you add the sewer charge it's over $100/month. Hooking up lawn irrigation to town water would double or triple that monthly bill. I'm not presently home but will post a couple pictures with more info when I get back.

 

[WorthFlorida]

Florida water is about the most expensive single item but with no state income tax and usually low property taxes, I'm not complaining. Switching over to city water it would be worth it to install a WiFi controller. I don't use automatic water every week but a few times usually during the winter since it's our dry season. Most of the raining season I'll rarely water. When the lawn starts to look stressed, I manually turn on a zone or do an entire irrigation program. Either away from home or on the patio, I can turn one the irrigation system. I have a Rain Bird Controller.

Sewer rates are capped at no more of a certain amount of water use. For Orange County Utilities it's 14,000 gallons. At $4.39/gallon plus the water itself at $1.81/gallon up to 10,000 gallons. Rate goes up per gallon over 10K.

https://orangecountyflutilities.selectpaytoday.com/Home/GetPDF?documentID=80c2a4e9-5352-4e17-d0a9-08da9d639fa8

 

[DMS]

Florida water is about the most expensive single item but with no state income tax and usually low property taxes, I'm not complaining. Switching over to city water it would be worth it to install a WiFi controller. I don't use automatic water every week but a few times usually during the winter since it's our dry season. Most of the raining season I'll rarely water. When the lawn starts to look stressed, I manually turn on a zone or do an entire irrigation program. Either away from home or on the patio, I can turn one the irrigation system. I have a Rain Bird Controller.

Sewer rates are capped at no more of a certain amount of water use. For Orange County Utilities it's 14,000 gallons. At $4.39/gallon plus the water itself at $1.81/gallon up to 10,000 gallons. Rate goes up per gallon over 10K.

https://orangecountyflutilities.selectpaytoday.com/Home/GetPDF?documentID=80c2a4e9-5352-4e17-d0a9-08da9d639fa8

 

[WorthFlorida]

Water & Sewer - Pinellas County

Pinellas County manages the water and wastewater treatment facility and the sewer systems that provide utilities to residents.

pinellas.gov

You might have reclaimed water in your neighborhood. The crazy thing about it there is still water restrictions placed on reclaimed water. Makes no sense but then if it is enforced or not by the water district, not by the water utilities.

Florida's number one natural resource is water. There is some good information out there. https://floridadep.gov/water-policy/water-policy/content/water-management-districts

Have a well guy give you an estimate so you can make a decision if it's worth it than paying a higher monthly water bill.

 

[DMS]

Thanks for your info, very helpful. There's no reclaimed water in my area, not yet anyway. I'm in the Clearwater/Palm Harbor area, and plan on contacting local water department to try and get an idea on what my water bill might be with lawn irrigation tied into town water. We'll be doing the snowbird thing so the 'wifi controller' option sounds like a good idea if we go the town water route.

Attached couple pics of the well pump setup, it's a 'Pentair Sta-rite" model # SNE-L, 1 hp.

Would be easier to control the lawn watering needs if we lived here year round, but it is what it is. The 10k lot is all grass minus the imprint of a 1500 sf house/two car garage. The grass is St Augustine, recently had new sod installed in the backyard area, as well as all new bushes/ trees. But they're all mostly established as I've been watering them for two plus months.

If the town allowed the option of having two meters so I'd only be paying for water coming in and not paying for water going out then the decision would be easy.. as it appears the monthly sewer charge is even higher than the water charge.

Thanks for your replies,

 

[DMS]

Hi: Wanted to update my original post: I have a shallow well for lawn irrigation that wasn't producing enough water, and hired a company to try adding points to the existing system, but they had no luck because of hardpan/clay. So I got quotes to put in a deep well to run the lawn irrigation system for my lawn that's about 9000sf in size. The well will be about 100' deep and will have a 1hp pump. One quote said there'd be a 62 gallon pressure tank, a second quote said they'd be using a 19 gallon tank, and a third quote had no tank listed. Wondered if there are pros or cons to using large tank/small tank/no tank? Thanks

 

[Valveman]

No pressure tank needed at all if you run the pump off the pump start relay in the sprinkler timer. But you will not be able to open a faucet to use garden hoses or things like that.

With a pressure tank and pressure switch the pump will come on when a faucet is opened and/or when the sprinkler timer turns on a zone. Water is fully automatic no matter what you do. However, the pump will fill the pressure tank and shut off, the hoses/sprinklers will drain the tank and the pump will come back on, over and over and over as long as you are using water. This is called "cycling" and is really bad for the pump as well as the sprinkler pattern as the pressure will be continually rising and falling.

The smaller the pressure tank, the more times the pump will cycle and the quicker the pressure will go from low to high and back.
The larger the pressure tank, the less the pump will cycle and the longer the system will be at maximum and minimum pressures.

Adding a Cycle Stop Valve prior to the pressure tank and any taps will stop the cycling as its name implies. The CSV can be used with large pressure tanks or small. But a small pressure tank is normally all that is needed as the CSV makes water go right past the tank, straight to the hose/sprinkler, at the exact same rate as is being used at the time, so there is no water to fill the tank and cause the pump to cycle on and off.

There are a lot of other choices on the market these days when it comes to controlling pumps. Some are very sophisticated, complicated, computerized, and expensive, which usually also means problematic. There is nothing more simple, long lasting, and reliable than a regular diaphragm pressure tank and a pressure switch. The only problem with the pressure tank system is the cycling on and off of the pump. A simple solution to this problem is adding a Cycle Stop Valve, which makes the dependable pressure tank system even more reliable and deliver strong constant pressure to the taps better than any expensive and troublesome pump controls you might encounter.

 

[WorthFlorida]

Does the quote include a pump? What type? Does it include a new controller? Is this using some of the existing equipment?

I had a well installed in 1997 when I lived in palm beach county. It went down 83 ft and it was sulfur water. It stunk a bit but there is no iron staining. I used a 1.5 hp motor at 240v. Lot was 75'x110' with the home on it. I was on city water and it needed five zones. I redid the entire controller with four zone valves from an index valve for five zones. . It was just about right. Hydro static pressure may bring the water to less than 20' and an above ground irrigation pump is all you need. If you need to use a submersible, 1HP may be good enough.

As Cary stated for irrigation only, no pressure tank is needed. The pump is switched on and off by the controller. It's a simple setup. A pressure tanks will take energy from the pump to keep it pressurized when you want all the energy to go toward pumping water. There are millions installed this way in Florida.

If you can use an above ground pump, the existing one you have will work. It is a jet pump with a pressure switch, therefore a small pressure tank is needed. Irrigation pumps are centrifugal. Jet pumps use some of the water pumped back to jet to pull water from the well.

 

[Valveman]

There are tons of systems using only the pump start relay in the sprinkler controller to control the pump. It is a simple and reliable system. But teeing a pressure tank in the line won't make any difference. The pressure tank doesn't really take any energy away. However, using a pressure switch and allowing the pump to cycle on and off does take energy away from the sprinklers. The energy or pressure to the sprinklers is always decreasing from the pressure tank when the pump is off. When the tank is empty and the pump cycles back on, the pump must make excess energy to run the sprinklers and fill the pressure tank at the same time. Adding a Cycle Stop Valve to a pressure tank system solves this problem by letting you set the desired energy or pressure you want delivered to the sprinklers. The adjustment on the CSV can be set anywhere from 15 to 150 PSI. Set at 60 PSI the CSV will maintain 60 PSI to the sprinklers instead of them seeing 50 PSI to 70 PSI over and over as with only a pressure tank/pressure switch.

Sometimes too much energy or pressure to the sprinklers can be a problem as they will fog or mist instead of throwing big droplets as they should. Without a CSV it is necessary to always run the correct amount of sprinklers to control the pressure from the pump, no matter if you control the pump with a pressure tank/pressure switch or just a pump start relay. Adding a CSV with the pressure tank system maintains a constant pressure to sprinkler zones of various sizes. The CSV and pressure tank also allows the use of garden hoses, faucets, hydrants, or can even supply water to the house at the same time.

It is allowing the pump to cycle that takes energy from the sprinklers, not the pressure tank. But I can certainly see why anyone would think that it would.