Drain Back System and Bladder-Type Tank

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Willy J

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Hello All,

I have deep well / drain back system installed in my cottage and it was originally equipped with a 30 gal galvanized tank with an air release valve. When I converted the place over to pex, the plumber recommended that I change the pressure tank to a bladder-type tank, which I did. I didn't realize at the time that the galvanized tank was integral to the drain back system. Now, air is getting into the tank, presumably in part due to the snifter valve just ahead of the check valve.

Does anyone know if there is a way to make the drain back system compatible with the bladder-style tank while still retaining the drain back functionality? Would simply removing and plugging the snifter valve be sufficient or are there other rammifications of that change? Is there anything in the well that would also be required to change?
 

Reach4

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Quick improvement: put an automobile valve cap on top of the snifter valve.

Better improvement would to also remove the drain-back valve in the drop pipe, or fix the hole that served the same purpose. Once you go that far, you would also remove the top-side check valve.

If your drain back valve is functioning well, you would not have to remove it. Just get rid of the check valve up top. That keeps the drop pipe pressurized, and ideally the drain back valve stays closed. If you have a hole rather than an official drain back valve, that would not work for you.

Why are you looking to keep the drain-back ability? Is this a summer place?
 

Willy J

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Quick improvement: put an automobile valve cap on top of the snifter valve.

Better improvement would to also remove the drain-back valve in the drop pipe, or fix the hole that served the same purpose. Once you go that far, you would also remove the top-side check valve.

If your drain back valve is functioning well, you would not have to remove it. Just get rid of the check valve up top. That keeps the drop pipe pressurized, and ideally the drain back valve stays closed. If you have a hole rather than an official drain back valve, that would not work for you.

Why are you looking to keep the drain-back ability? Is this a summer place?
I'd like to keep the drain back in place because it is a four season cottage but I only go up occasionally in the winter. I shut the water off and blow out the lines in the fall so no freezing inside. When I do go up in the winter, I can power up the pump and fill the water tank, while leaving the valves to the main interior lines closed so that water is only in the pressure tank.

From there, I can fill buckets to have water for the weekend, then shut things down easily when I leave. It works great without having to heat trace the pump line for the winter.
 

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A brass bleeder orifice is all you need to drain the system. Using more than one will drain it faster. A vent/vac valve before a check valve at the tank will let air in and out as needed. The problem is that it will take 30 seconds or so for the air to be pushed out and the water refill the line. Your pressure tank will need to continue supplying the water needed until the pipe is refilled. I think you will need a tank that holds at least 10 gallons of water (44 gallon size tank) or you will run out before the water gets to the house. Even then it will need a much lower than usual air charge. Tanks with a 40/60 switch need an air charge of 38 PSI normally. I would start with 20 PSI air and see if there is any hesitation in water supply.
 

Willy J

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A brass bleeder orifice is all you need to drain the system. Using more than one will drain it faster. A vent/vac valve before a check valve at the tank will let air in and out as needed. The problem is that it will take 30 seconds or so for the air to be pushed out and the water refill the line. Your pressure tank will need to continue supplying the water needed until the pipe is refilled. I think you will need a tank that holds at least 10 gallons of water (44 gallon size tank) or you will run out before the water gets to the house. Even then it will need a much lower than usual air charge. Tanks with a 40/60 switch need an air charge of 38 PSI normally. I would start with 20 PSI air and see if there is any hesitation in water supply.
The system does have a vent/vac valve just ahead of the check valve, and I can feel air blowing out when the pump fills the tank, then a vacuum as the water drains back to the well. After speaking with the original owner, the snifter valve on the tank check valve has been capped off and doesn't do anything anymore. That was apparently used before the vent/vac valve was installed ahead of the check valve. Unfortunately, I'm still getting some air in the tank when it fills? I don't know if the vent/vac valve is functioning correctly to let all the air escape before closing, or if something else is happening.

The original owner indicated that the only change to the well was the removal of the foot valve so that the water would drain back to the well. The well was drilled to 115 ft, and the static water level is 30 ft. I'm not sure what else to do to fix the air issue. In my system, it doesn't take 30 seconds for the water to reach the tank. It appears to be only a few seconds, but I haven't timed it yet.
 

Willy J

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The system does have a vent/vac valve just ahead of the check valve, and I can feel air blowing out when the pump fills the tank, then a vacuum as the water drains back to the well. After speaking with the original owner, the snifter valve on the tank check valve has been capped off and doesn't do anything anymore. That was apparently used before the vent/vac valve was installed ahead of the check valve. Unfortunately, I'm still getting some air in the tank when it fills? I don't know if the vent/vac valve is functioning correctly to let all the air escape before closing, or if something else is happening.

The original owner indicated that the only change to the well was the removal of the foot valve so that the water would drain back to the well. The well was drilled to 115 ft, and the static water level is 30 ft. I'm not sure what else to do to fix the air issue. In my system, it doesn't take 30 seconds for the water to reach the tank. It appears to be only a few seconds, but I haven't timed it yet.
Note: The air release valve that I have at the high point, just ahead of the tank check valve is a Valmatic 1/2" 15A series valve. Should this valve be sufficient to remove all the air before it gets to the tank, or is there something better that I should use? Do these valves require service or cleaning? Is it possible that this valve is not sized to allow the volume of air to escape fast enough while filling?
 
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Valveman

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Any distance between the vent valve and the check valve will still be full of air. Also, air vents usually have a small orifice compared to the pipe size. A 1" has like a 1/8" orifice. So, maybe you need two vent valves or a larger one. The vac has a long time to work, which is why a little Schrader valve will usually do fine.
 

mlund

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Hello All,

I have deep well / drain back system installed in my cottage and it was originally equipped with a 30 gal galvanized tank with an air release valve. When I converted the place over to pex, the plumber recommended that I change the pressure tank to a bladder-type tank, which I did. I didn't realize at the time that the galvanized tank was integral to the drain back system. Now, air is getting into the tank, presumably in part due to the snifter valve just ahead of the check valve.

Does anyone know if there is a way to make the drain back system compatible with the bladder-style tank while still retaining the drain back functionality? Would simply removing and plugging the snifter valve be sufficient or are there other rammifications of that change? Is there anything in the well that would also be required to change?
Hi everyone. I want to install a drainback system so my system is usable year-round here in Ontario. I know all the valves I need (see attached - courtesy of DeanBennettSupply). Where can I buy these valves in Canada? I've tried to emailing DeanBennettSupply - no reply, and phone just disconnects. Thanks!
 

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