Does Redgard or Aquadefence replace shower pan liner?

Discussion in 'Shower & Bathtub Forum & Blog' started by Rojocapo, Dec 27, 2018.

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Does Redgard or Aquadefence replace liners?

This poll will close on Jan 27, 2019 at 9:17 AM.
  1. Yes

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  2. No

    0 vote(s)
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  1. Rojocapo

    Rojocapo New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2018
    Location:
    New Jersey
    I have been asking around and been receiving mixed answers. The companies tell you yes, members tell you no...

    Also having mixed answers on pre slopes.

    Some will say to do a slope use one of the products above and tile over. Others will tell you pre slope, liner, slope and then tile.

    How come so many mixed answers? Is there no wrong one?

    I am assuming "old school" will tell you nothing will replace the liner but is it true?

    Any input on people who use these products instead?

    Thank you for your time!
     
  2. Redland1

    Redland1 New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2018
    Location:
    San Antonio,Texas

    Here’s a video of why the pre slope is needed.I just built mine a month ago without it and wished that this video was out then.Before that mostly everyone said that it was needed,but there was no proof why.Now there is.As far as liquid membranes do not use them as stand alone liners.
     
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  4. Rojocapo

    Rojocapo New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2018
    Location:
    New Jersey
    Thank you, yes i feel that if i was going to use a liner then a pre slope would be needed because i would have a layer of mud on top before tile, but if the liquid membranes work as they say they do, then water would not pass into the mud to begin with. So basically comes down to if i can trust these liquids to do what it's supposed to.
    I also found youtube videos saying that pre slope is not needed either way. My floor is concrete (basement) and not plywood so i should care even less i guess but i just want to do things right.
     
  5. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2004
    Occupation:
    Retired Systems engineer for defense industry.
    Location:
    New England
    The industry standard on tiling things is the Tile Council of North America (TCNA) handbook. It gets updated annually. There are LOTS of tested, approved methods to build a shower.

    If you're planning on using a liquid applied waterproofing, you must follow the manufacturer's instructions along with the TCNA guidelines. Most of them want a liner as a backup. You might think it strange that a waterproofing liquid would require a liner, too, but they know their product.

    Sheet membranes, OTOH, have been tested and approved for use without one, and at least two of them have been approved for use over plain drywall on the walls that would fail any reasonable inspection without one. None of the liquid applied waterproofing products allow use over drywall. The testing and the company have enough faith in their products to allow them over drywall which, in a conventional shower almost always fails eventually.

    FWIW, it is a bit harder than you might think to make the surface waterproof while using a liquid applied membrane. They must be installed between the min/max thickness without runs or pinholes over the entire surface. Extra coats or extra thick layers are not better, and can compromise the bond and operation. The wait between layers and then again the curing time prior to being able to flood test means that overall, the timing will (or at least should) be longer than with a sheet membrane. At least one company allows flood testing within 15-minutes of installing their liner, but most want things to cure for a day prior to that, while liquid requires a few. That quick one requires using an adhesive to make the seams verses thinset and that's why you can flood test sooner. WIth a liquid applied waterproofing, you must tape and fill the seams, let that cure for a day or so, apply the first coat of waterproofing, wait for that to dry/cure, apply the second, wait a couple of days, then you can water test, after which you can start tiling.

    My preference is a tileable sheet membrane that is waterproof. The only points where you need to be concerned to make things waterproof are the seams, and, that isn't hard. Those companies also make foam-core, tileable panels that are waterproof. They take the place of the backerboard and waterproofing, so things can get even faster.

    The plumbing code requires the waterproofing layer to be sloped to the drain. Without a preslope, your liner should fail that criteria and an inspection. Many inspectors ignore that, but industry standards require it as well. With a sheet membrane, it is tileable, so can go directly on the preslope. Neither tile nor grout are considered the waterproofing by the industry, so you must slope the liner.

    Your confusion is partly from the fact that there are numerous approved methods to build a shower. Mixing and combining different techniques also means they have not been tested (and technically, should fail an inspection, but that rarely happens). Throw in a study that found that 70-80% of tiled showers do not meet industry standards, there are a lot of them out there that won't last and will have problems. Building one isn't technically hard, but is very detail oriented...you must do all of the things properly with good workmanship.
     
  6. Redland1

    Redland1 New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2018
    Location:
    San Antonio,Texas
    Where the videos saying that a pre slope was not required by Starrtile?
     
  7. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2004
    Occupation:
    Retired Systems engineer for defense industry.
    Location:
    New England
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