Did I just blow my well pump with my new CSV??

Discussion in 'Pumps and Tanks Well Forum & Blog. Water is life.' started by DIYLawnGuyMD, Jul 24, 2021.

  1. DIYLawnGuyMD

    DIYLawnGuyMD New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2021
    Location:
    Harford County, MD
    So I installed my new CSV today, and I fear I may have blown my pump somehow. Would like some help quickly if possible.

    After installing the CSV (PK1A with 10 gallon pressure tank) I turned on power it was flowing fine, but the CSV pressure gauge was showing a pressure around 20-25 PSI with the hose bib fully open. This kit was supposed to be set up for 55 psi constant. I tried tightening down the CSV stem to increase the PSI but it didn’t do anything.

    When I closed the hose, the pressure gauge on the CSV seemed to jump up and peg, the settle back at 50 PSI. Then the pressure switch started cycling on and off rapidly. After it did this a few times turned off the pump power to avoid hurting it. Now when I turn the power on, the pump doesn’t do anything.

    Could the pressure switch have gone bad that fast? Thinking about trying my old pressure switch, but I am very concerned right now!
     
  2. DIYLawnGuyMD

    DIYLawnGuyMD New Member

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    Location:
    Harford County, MD
    Update, pump is working again. The only thing I can think of is perhaps it went into a self protect mode for a little while. Trying to adjust the pressure switch now, and seeming to have a lot of trouble getting the CSV to maintain the right pressure. I have the stem adjusted almost all the way down and the pressure seems to be staying well below 50 PSI.
     
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  4. DIYLawnGuyMD

    DIYLawnGuyMD New Member

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    My apologies for panicking. Everything seems to be working now, just need to fine tune the settings.
     
  5. WorthFlorida

    WorthFlorida The wife is still training me.

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    Oct 28, 2009
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    Retired
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    Most motors have a built in thermo switch. If the motor gets too hot it switches out the power to allow the motor to cool down and resets when a certain temperature is obtained. Pump motors, air conditioning compressors, refrigerators and other motor applications have this protection.
     
  6. LLigetfa

    LLigetfa DIYer, not in the trades

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    Semi-Retired
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    Depending on what GPM the pump can deliver, pipe size and length, and GPM that can flow through the hose bib, it is possible that the pump cannot keep up.
     
    Bannerman likes this.
  7. DIYLawnGuyMD

    DIYLawnGuyMD New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2021
    Location:
    Harford County, MD
    Thanks for the input guys. After I took some time to think everything through, I figured it was a self-protect/cool down behavior of the pump. Still new to all this well stuff, so thanks for excusing my rookie posts.

    Regarding the pump not keeping up with the GPM, I think that is definitely the case. After further testing last night I realized that the hose bib (3/4” full flow ball valve coming out of 1” PVC) was very high flow. With it just partially open about 25%, I was getting 11 gpm, so that explains that.

    Now I just have to tweak the CSV and pressure switch cut in/out to get the best balance of flow and pressure while avoiding the pump cycling while showering. I seem to be unable to figure out how to set up the CSV to provide the pressure and flow I was planning for my sprinkler system while also keeping it from cycling during showers and other uses inside the house at lower flow rates. As I was tinkering with it last night I found two different CSV adjustments that could meet one of those demands, but not both. It was either too high flow for inside the house or too low flow for the sprinkler system. I’m going to do a new post about that later.
     
  8. Reach4

    Reach4 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2013
    Location:
    IL
    While running just the shower on full blast cold, what pressure does your pressure gauge say?
    If the pressure is cycling,
    1. how long after the pump starts does the pressure rise slow
    2. how long after the slowing does it take for the pump to click off?
    3. how long until the pump clicks on again?
    Is the pressure gauge set for 40/60?

    How about a photo that shows the CSV, pipe from the well, pressure switch, and the input to the pressure tank.
     
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2021
  9. DIYLawnGuyMD

    DIYLawnGuyMD New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2021
    Location:
    Harford County, MD
    Last night in testing the shower on warm, it would gradually climb from 50-55 psi to the current switch cutoff of 65psi. At the end of the night as I was showering the pressure was great until the last two minutes when I could tell it had hit the cutoff and was pressuring back down from the tank. Pressure gauge is currently set for 45/65 with a target of 55 psi constant (again thinking ahead for the sprinkler system going in soon).

    I have the 10 gallon pressure tank. I think the air charge in it was a little high out of the box which I am thinking may have contributed to the pressure gauge maxing out when I first turned everything on last night. I think it was close to 50psi air charge with the tank water depressurized, so I let out some air to around 38 psi (7 psi below cut-in of 45 as mentioned in the troubleshooting guide that came with the CSV kit). Also I may have shut off the 3/4” hose bib too quickly and possibly caused a water hammer in doing so, momentarily spiking the pressure. Doesn’t seem to have done any damage though.

    I will test the shower on cold only this afternoon, and post pics of the plumbing setup.
     
  10. DIYLawnGuyMD

    DIYLawnGuyMD New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2021
    Location:
    Harford County, MD
    Here’s a pic of the setup. Top line going to the left in the photo goes to the house plumbing, and the other 1” line branching to the right will go out to the sprinkler system, but is not yet hooked up, so the valve has stayed off for that branch so far.

    1042DF4A-D3A4-4862-89EE-437EAD1C485C.jpeg
     
  11. Reach4

    Reach4 Well-Known Member

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    Location:
    IL
    I see nothing suspicious. What is that brass thing closest to the corner of the window?
     
  12. Bannerman

    Bannerman Well-Known Member

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    Mar 19, 2014
    Location:
    Ontario, Canada
    With 45/65 pressure switch settings, the pressure tank pre-charge should be 42-43 psi.

    Once the system pressure drops to 45 psi, the pressure switch should be activating the pump. Once the pump is activated, with constant flow to a faucet of slightly more than 1 GPM, calibrate the CSV to supply 55 psi constant after the CSV.

    With the correct CSV calibration pressure, the pressure tank will not continue filling to the 65 psi cut out pressure unless there is less than 1 GPM flow since 1 GPM is the CSV's minimum regulated flow rate.

    If the flow rate for irrigation exceeds the pump's capacity, the pressure before the CSV will be insufficient for the CSV to govern flow so the CSV will not be restricting flow from the pump, but will be fully open to allow 100% of the flow possible from the pump to pass through.
     
  13. DIYLawnGuyMD

    DIYLawnGuyMD New Member

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    Jul 23, 2021
    Location:
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    That is a 3/4” pex barb connection threaded to the PVC for an outdoor hose bib I am putting in.
     
  14. DIYLawnGuyMD

    DIYLawnGuyMD New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2021
    Location:
    Harford County, MD

    That’s what I don’t understand, because it was filling the tank (slowly) while my shower was running last night. I think maybe the issue is that last night I calibrated the CSV adjustment stem while I was running a 10-11 GPM flow out of the hose bib. I will try calibrating it while running 1 GPM.

    I did adjust the pressure down some last night while the shower was running and the showers are currently running about 52 psi steady on just full cold as well as warm (handle right in the middle of the mixing valve)
     
  15. Bannerman

    Bannerman Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2014
    Location:
    Ontario, Canada
    To calibrate, the flow rate is not critical, but will need to be greater than 1-GPM, but less than the pump's capacity. 1.25-1.5 GPM will be good.

    For the CSV to work properly, a pressure differential between the inlet and outlet is required. With the regulated pressure calibrated to 55 psi, the CSV is always attempting to maintain 55 psi downstream by regulating the higher inlet pressure.

    When there is minor flow, the CSV will only need to allow minimal flow to maintain 55 psi whereas when the flow rate is increased, the downstream pressure will reduce, causing the CSV to open more to allow greater flow so as to maintain 55 psi. When flow is reduced, downstream pressure will rise, causing the CSV to reduce flow so that 55 psi is maintained.

    With 0 - 1 GPM flow, the CSV will be fully closed to prevent the pressure from exceeding 55 psi. Because the CSV is designed to 'leak' 1 GPM though while fully closed, the downstream pressure will continue to rise to fill the pressure tank until the pressure eventually rises to 65 psi to cause the pressure switch to shut off the pump.

    When water use exceeds pump capacity, the downstream pressure will be less than 55 psi, causing the CSV to fully open, resulting in virtually 0 pressure differential between the inlet and the outlet of the CSV.
     
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2021
  16. valveman

    valveman Cary Austin Staff Member

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    Occupation:
    Pump Controls Technician
    Location:
    Lubbock, Texas
    It would have been much better if you had not messed with the settings. The PK1A kits come preset and should not have needed any adjustment. If you ask for 55 PSI constant, the CSV1A would have been set at 55 PSI while using 3 GPM like a shower. Yhe pressure switch would have been set to turn the pump on at 45 and off at 65. The tank would have had 40 PSI air with the pump off and no water in the tank. With the CSV holding 55 PSI constant for a shower, it would be giving you 45 PSI constant while running up to 20 GPM with sprinklers.

    If you need more than 45 on the sprinklers, the CSV could be turned up to 65 PSI for a shower using a 55/75 pressure switch setting, then you would have 55 PSI constant for a 20 GPM sprinkler zone.
     
  17. LLigetfa

    LLigetfa DIYer, not in the trades

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2011
    Occupation:
    Semi-Retired
    Location:
    NW Ontario, Canada
    Maybe your air pressure gauge is reading wrong and you now your precharge is way off. See if the air gauge is calibrated to the water gauge by comparing readings when the pump is running and the water pressure is above the cut-in preset. The two gauges should read the same.
     
  18. DIYLawnGuyMD

    DIYLawnGuyMD New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2021
    Location:
    Harford County, MD
    Appreciate the insights valveman — the thing is, the pressure switch was cycling erratically upon startup of the system as I was attempting to follow the startup instructions. I’m not going to claim I did everything perfectly from the get-go as this is all pretty new to me, but I do want to highlight that I installed it with everything pre-set, and didn’t change any of the settings before doing the initial startup. After I followed the troubleshooting instructions for rapid cycling and let some air out of the bladder, things started to behave the way I was originally expecting.

    With all that said, it is working pretty well now, and we are loving the constant pressure showers already! Just need to iron the settings to get pressure/flow that matches what’s needed for in-house domestic uses as well as the sprinkler system needs.

    Anything I should worry about back pressure wise going to 55/75 set up? In my thread from earlier the consensus seemed to be my system would produce a max of 200 PSI before the CSV, which was considered safe. Would going up to 55/75 introduce any potential new issues?

    Thanks
     
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2021
  19. Reach4

    Reach4 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2013
    Location:
    IL
    Instructions say 2 to 3 gpm in step C: https://cyclestopvalves.com/pages/pk1a-lt-installation-instructions
    Full-on shower may be near that.
     
  20. valveman

    valveman Cary Austin Staff Member

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2006
    Occupation:
    Pump Controls Technician
    Location:
    Lubbock, Texas
    The back pressure is the same, as that is how much the pump can build, no matter the CSV or pressure switch settings. But your pump can build 200 PSI, so you can turn it up as much as you want.

    Sorry you had that problem. Most likely the diaphragm was just stuck to the bottom of the tank from the heat during shipping and storage. It sometimes takes a little extra pressure to get it to pop loose. I usually just hold the little tongue down on the bottom of the adjustment screw in the pressure switch with a screw driver until I hear/feel the diaphragm pop up. Also, hot air in the tank causes the air pressure to be higher than what was put in while it was cooler.
     
    Reach4 likes this.
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