Determining age of pump? Should I save intact motor? Need a good 4" casing union.

Discussion in 'Pumps and Tanks Well Forum & Blog. Water is life.' started by sheetpilot, Jun 18, 2021.

  1. sheetpilot

    sheetpilot New Member

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    FL
    Images; https://photos.app.goo.gl/bKDy2xpoAdXW9diy5

    Pump imploded. Didn't want to haul out galvanized so paid someone to fix it.

    -Pumps been in since before I moved in 8 years ago. The pump was a "bruiser" 20SB1012 which I guess is an old goulds pump, with a franklin motor 2145089003. Anyone able to tell age from that by chance? I couldn't find any indication of manufacture date anywhere on anything.

    A diffuser shattered and then obviously took out the impellers/diffusers above it. I assume this is just an age thing and not from any particular cause. There doesn't appear to be any excess wear. All the service people moaned about the CSV, and I would agree if the failure was excess wear at the bottom of the impeller, but it clearly wasn't. If anything it was upthrust wear.

    -The motor was perfectly fine, should I/can I save it? I imagine it might not store well now that it's been in use for so long. I'm not sure if they are fully sealed or what. There's a hole on the bottom the spits out some water any time I lift the drive coupler.

    -Finally, I had a rusted through well casing above ground I had them fix while here. They cut it off below ground level and plopped a slip on riser on it... without welding it. It wobbles a ton, clearly wont seal. I'm not really happy with this fix but I had them do the work because I didn't want to bust up the concrete myself. (the other company out of 8 that was actually prepared to do that work wasgoing to do the same thing by smashing some pvc onto it too so...)

    I'm looking for a way I might be able to fix this more appropriately myself. In the past someone mentioned a dresser coupling which seems like it will work ok to well. Any other recommendations?
     
  2. Reach4

    Reach4 Well-Known Member

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    The Franklin motor has a date code. See https://franklin-electric.com.au/media/8502/Date codes serial Nos 2004 03.pdf

    If you want to put a new pump down there, consider a "3 inch" Grundfos SQ series. If you use a "4 inch" pump in steel, it should be a slimline/trimline type, and even then, it could hang up on junk on the inside of the casing. The regular pumps are bigger than the motor, so are effectively about 3.9 inch. The slimline ones should be about 3.75 diameter.

    "Casing union"? I think you are you looking to extend the cut-off steel casing. Most states call for welding on an extension. I don't know about using the Dresser coupling for that. It's been done. There are also shielded couplings that have 4 clamps. https://www.supplyhouse.com/Fernco-...g-Connects-Cast-Iron-PVC-Copper-Steel-or-Lead

    Is this for your drinking water?
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2021
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  4. sheetpilot

    sheetpilot New Member

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    Mine doesn't quite conform to that numbering. It's stamped (without a leading zero) 2L95 14-2554. Maybe 2002, nov, but an undocumented plant code?

    Union/coupling, whatever word works well. But yes, the way they did it isn't going to cut it. Yes it's a residential well.
     
  5. valveman

    valveman Cary Austin Staff Member

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    The pump looks more broken than worn. It certainly isn't damaged by the CSV, as CSV's save pumps they don't damage them. Probably from pumping chunks of rust that fell off that casing.

    Going to be hard to properly seal and attach to that casing unless you break the concrete. Need to get to good metal to weld or even to make a compression coupling work properly.
     
  6. sheetpilot

    sheetpilot New Member

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    Concrete is already broken out and casing cut below grade where it was solid. They plopped a bell end steel fitting on it and called it a day. It's wobbly and not at all sealed. I ordered a dresser coupling and will be using that unless anyone suggest a better solution before it gets here.

    Also, I don't think it was the CSV either. In fairness a CSV does increase downthrust and run time, which do increase wear to the pump some extent. But I imagine the pump or motor would fail in some other way before that's is a factor, especially with increased starts without. I also note that manufacturers void warranties for running in high upthrust but don't care about high downthrust (because its accounted for).
     
  7. valveman

    valveman Cary Austin Staff Member

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    I would just weld the bell fitting to the good steel casing.

    Actually, down thrust does not increase wear to a pump. Motors with a Kingsbury type thrust bearing have a film of water between the thrust pads and plate. Once the pump is up to 50% speed the film of water makes the bearing frictionless, and there is no wear. Pumps with a floating stack design have their impellers held up by the motor thrust bearing, no matter the down thrust, and therefore do not touch anything either. The only time a pump or motor wears is on start up until the pump is up to 50% speed and has the film of lubricating and cooling water on the bearings. Pumps can run 24/7/365 for many many years and have zero wear. They can only survive so many starts as that is what causes wear.
     
  8. sheetpilot

    sheetpilot New Member

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    I clearly stated pump not motor.

    This is absolutely not correct. The impellers wear in a floating impeller design (which is the vast majority of them)is totally irrelevant to the motors thrust bearing. The impellers are balanced under certain conditions, they ride on the bowl or diffuser under others conditions. One such time for any pump rated over ~7gpm is the refill phase of the CSV where there is high pressure and low flow. For a 20gpm pump like mine the impeller is absolutely riding against the bowl at the 100+psi and ~1gpm condition during this phase.
     
  9. valveman

    valveman Cary Austin Staff Member

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    It is correct. The impellers in a floating stack pump do not touch anything and are completely frictionless. "Floating stage" pumps are designed to wear out quicker, as they do drag on the diffuser below. Being able to plan the life span of the pump and being able to manufacture cheaper are the main reasons for a company making a pump with floating stage design that has friction built in. The type of plastic used is supposed to be self lubricating and not hurt to drag the diffuser. But simple physics says an impeller that touches the diffuser will wear and one that doesn't touch the diffuser will not wear. Still, even a floating stage pump will probably last longer with a Cycle Stop Valve as cycling will still kill the motor before the dragging style impellers wear out from any down thrust.
     
  10. sheetpilot

    sheetpilot New Member

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    Which has nothing to do with this thread or my statements. As expected, you do know how floating impeller pumps work and that the CSV can increase wear to their impellers.

    In this thread I clearly showed a floating impeller pump, my statement was obviously about a floating impeller pump (which clearly you knew), and they are the most common well pumps in service nowadays. But you chose to reply to my earliest statement saying it was wrong (when it wasn't) and make generalities which only apply to a specific and less common style of pump. I'm sorry but the kindest description of this is disingenuous, but I would use a different word personally.
     
  11. valveman

    valveman Cary Austin Staff Member

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    Lol! If you know that a "floating stage" pump wears and a "floating stack" pump doesn't, then why would you buy a "floating stage" pump? Again, it is not the CSV that is the problem but rather the type of pump. Those are not the most common, but they are trying to make them that way, because they like to make pumps that wear out in a dependable amount of time.

    Sorry, I didn't read up and remember you had one of those type pumps. You are the one who got off subject and stated "A CSV does increase downthrust and run time, which do increase wear to the pump some extent", making it look like the back pressure from a CSV is a bad thing. It is no different than setting a pump in a well so deep it can only produce 1 or 3 GPM or using a 1 0r 3 GPM Dole valve, and any pump should be able to survive a long time like that. Don't know what got you in such a miff? But I wasn't being disingenuous. I was simply skimming because I answer about 30-50 of these type questions everyday. Hope you don't take offense to me suggesting you weld on that casing adapter. Guess you also don't want to hear what I have to say about "saving an intact motor". Don't want to be disingenuous or a xnkhsoihds khrjqkjwh! :)
     
  12. sheetpilot

    sheetpilot New Member

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    Got any more excuses for the fact you made objectively incorrect statements in response to objectively correct statements?

    Yes I did state that, because it's objectively correct. To my application, to the most common pumps in service, and which clearly refereed to the type of the prior two.

    "it's no different than putting an improperly sized pump down a well" You're right, which is why you should properly size your pump so it can make the lift within it's efficiency range and not operate in constant downthrust.

    I don't see much sense in continuing this conversation.
     
  13. valveman

    valveman Cary Austin Staff Member

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    See there you go again. A pump is always operating under constant downthrust. You keep trying to make that sound like a bad thing. That is just how pumps work. The deeper the well or the more the flow needs to be restricted, the more back pressure. But no pump can make more back pressure than it can stand. I agree sizing the pump as close to the requirements is important. But it cannot be sized for every demand. You just size a little larger than needed, and use a Dole valve or a Cycle Stop Valve to make the pump do what you want.

    You are "objectively correct" that the type pump you have will wear more as downthrust increases than other brands of pumps. But you are objectively incorrect saying it is the back pressure that causes the problem or that "floating stage" type pumps are the most common. Many more companies make floating stack design pumps than floating stage, as they are superior in many ways.

    I don't know why we are even having this conversation. It is obvious that is was LACK of back pressure that caused your pump to fail. You are worried about too much back pressure when your problem is not having enough.
     
  14. sheetpilot

    sheetpilot New Member

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    I never specified back pressure exclusively, and you know it. My statements were;

    It is a combination of pressure and low flow that create downthrust. As stated quite clearly.

    I have clearly and repeatedly stated I am referring to floating impeller pumps. My statement is correct.

    Because I made an objectively correct statement you didn't like and tried to make it sound like it was incorrect, despite knowing it was correct.

    This discussion was already over. I'm just correcting any mis-characterizations you make.
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2021
  15. valveman

    valveman Cary Austin Staff Member

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    Gee Wiz! You win! But I still don't know what you won? Somebody needs a Snickers! :)
     
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