CYCLE Sensor, float switch, well pump, Stenner wiring?

Discussion in 'Pumps and Tanks Well Forum & Blog. Water is life.' started by CenterTree, Jul 12, 2021.

  1. CenterTree

    CenterTree New Member

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    Pennsylvania
    Hi all. Got a NEW well drilled yielding only 1.5 GPM. I’m in the process of setting up layout/plumbing.


    1/2HP, 220V pump (2 wire) in the 240’deep well.

    Have a CYCLE SENSOR to add in setup to combat dry run.

    Basic setup… 1” poly line coming from pitless to house, then into 200 gallon poly holding tank cistern. Then H2O pumped from cistern via jet pump to filters and then house lines. The cistern will have a float switch to tell the well pump when to kick on and off. Also a second lower float switch for the jet pump dry/low water shut off protection. (probably SJE RHOMBUS types).

    I have 12/2 wire (20A, double pole 220V) coming from panel to the wall area for the CYCLE SENSOR/pump.

    I do want to include a H2O2 injection (Stenner) on the incoming line from well, but B4 the cistern tank. (so the peroxide has a bit of time to work and sit B4 going into filters, etc.)


    Questions:

    1). Does the float switch for the well need to be a 220v type? And how does it tie into the CYCLE SENSOR unit as far as wiring goes? Must I need some sort of relay in this setup?

    2). Does the STENNER pump need to be a 220V model?

    3). As far as the CYCLE SENSOR is concerned, is there a way to wire the float switch AND the STENNER injection pump all working in conjunction? I want the float switch to tell the well pump when to kick on AND ALSO tell the STENNER pump to start running for the peroxide injection at the same time.

    If I need to, I can consider a FLOW SWITCH installed on the incoming line that will signal the STENNER pump to turn on, but I would rather avoid that expense and I’m not sure I trust the longevity of a magnet type flow switch. https://www.flowswitch.org/


    Any options I may have missed?

    THANKS!
     
  2. Reach4

    Reach4 Well-Known Member

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    https://www.sjerhombus.com/products/sje-pumpmaster-wps/ can carry enough power and is certified for potable water.

    It is single pole, and would only switch one of the hots, so there would need to be a 2-pole switch upstream. After reviewing the wiring for the Cycle Sensor, I think you will need a relay, because the switch goes after the Cycle sensor. https://cyclestopvalves.com/pages/cycle-sensor-pump-monitor-wiring-diagram-1ph The float switches with a 240 volt piggyback plug/socket only switch one hot.

    https://www.sjerhombus.com/products/sje-pumpmaster-spdt/ is double pole. It does not say it is certified for potable water, but I expect that is a matter of certification rather than a difference in construction.

    A relay will be needed to power the Stenner I think, regardless of whether you plan to use a 120 volt Stenner pump or 240. This is because the extra load of paralleling the Stenner pump may throw off the Cycle Sensor. The relay would be selected to not draw much power. https://www.zoro.com/schneider-elec...5a-6425axxszs-ac90/i/G1663207/#specifications seems good.
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2021
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  4. Reach4

    Reach4 Well-Known Member

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    Here is my idea. Powering control to relay with 230 to pump because that way we don't care which hot the Cycle Sensor is switching. Stenner hot could be either L1 or L2. The solid state relay isolates things. Solid state relay control draws little current, so as to not interfere with sensing. I am not a pro.

    img_1.png

    Float switch could be one with a piggyback 240 volt plug. That would make for easy swap out of the float switch. Make sure float switch is specified to drive motors.
     
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  5. valveman

    valveman Cary Austin Staff Member

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    Excellent wiring diagram Reach! Gonna add it to my collection. Thanks!
     
  6. CenterTree

    CenterTree New Member

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    Thanks REACH. Having trouble deciphering what that grey "NEUTRAL" wire is though? I have 12/2 cable coming from my panel (20A double pole 220V breaker). Would I need 12/3 for your idea?
     
  7. valveman

    valveman Cary Austin Staff Member

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    The grey wire to neutral makes it 115V for your Stenner coming from a 230V relay. But I don't think anything needs to be attached to #2.
     
  8. CenterTree

    CenterTree New Member

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    So in this setup, the float would switch the pump "on" and also the Stenner at the same time. (which is good), but what if the well runs low during a pumping cycle B4 the tank is full enough? Now the CYCLE SENSOR would shut off the well pump, yet the float would still not have reached the "up" position where it shuts off the Stenner??

    Do I have it wrong in my head? It is impairative that the Stenner and well pump both shut off together, every time, no matter what the position of the float. :confused:
     
  9. valveman

    valveman Cary Austin Staff Member

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    You are correct. And without that red wire to #2 the Cycle Sensor would shut the power off to both at the same time.
     
  10. Reach4

    Reach4 Well-Known Member

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    When the pump runs, the solid state relay closes its output. That powers Stenner. Thus the whenever the pump runs, and only when the pump runs, the Stenner runs.

    When the pump is off for any reason, the relay output opens, and the Stenner does not run.

    That would be a neutral wire from the breaker box neutral bar. Those wires are normally white, but the drawing had a white background. So yes, you would need 12-3.

    I thought about changing the drawing background to gray, but that would be more work. I thought about using green, but that would probably be confused with an equipment/safety ground.

    If you use a 240-volt powered Stenner pump, you would not need to use a neutral wire.
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2021
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  11. CenterTree

    CenterTree New Member

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    Just checking back in here.

    Gonna order the 240V Stenner. And since this is an inside-the-basement setup, I already have all the lights and heat installed separately. (no need for a neutral wire from the well circuit for that).

    QUESTION:
    Do I really need any relay at all if the well pump is only 1/2 HP, 240V? The SJE Rhombus float switch is rated for 110v@ 1/2hp and up to 1hp@240v. So it will support a direct wiring I suspect without a relay. https://www.rcworst.com/sje-rhombus...p-up-or-down-15-cord-weighted-externally.html

    I would just use a junction box and do the appropriate wiring that way, right?

    I will stick in a rough diagram here. Can anyone opinionate if it looks doable the way I have it?

    Well layout-small.jpg


    Trying to keep this simple.
     
  12. valveman

    valveman Cary Austin Staff Member

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    The Cycle Sensor will see the Stenner as part of the load. I don't know how or if that will work?
     
  13. CenterTree

    CenterTree New Member

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    Ok, so would using a relay eliminate that "problem"?

    Doesn't a relay need a certain amount of "load" to function?

    Note: I am certainly not an expert on electricity...LOL.
     
  14. Reach4

    Reach4 Well-Known Member

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    I don't like your diagram. The power to the Stenner should not pass through the Cycle Sensor.


    A mechanical relay, no.

    An electronic relay, if there is a minimum load (not saying there is), the Stenner pump will be significantly above that.

    This is what I was looking at. I did not do a big search for alternatives. I see no minimum current spec for the load.

    https://www.zoro.com/schneider-elec...-90-to-280vac-25a-6425axxszs-ac90/i/G1663207/
    https://www.mouser.com/datasheet/2/...c_10312019_solid_state_relay_cata-1665022.pdf

    Input current: 0.2 to 1.0VA = ( .000843 amps to .00422 amps)= (0.843 to 4.22 mA)

    Maybe a mechanical relay would be a better choice, such as this: https://www.zoro.com/schneider-elec...y-4pin-240vac-spst-no-9as1a52-240/i/G3301873/
    Input current: 2.8 VA/24ov = 0.117 amps = 117 mA.
     
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2021
  15. valveman

    valveman Cary Austin Staff Member

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    Only the coil on the relay would get power from the Cycle Sensor and that would be very little. The relay would take power directly to the Stenner without the Cycle Sensor seeing anything but the coil.
     
  16. CenterTree

    CenterTree New Member

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    Update:
    I recently found out that STENNER makes a specific pump (ECON FP) that is matched up to their very own FLOW SWITCH . I was originally looking at Stenner's mechanical pump of a different model which required some "tricky" wiring. (tricky for me anyway ;))

    I luckily stumbled onto this model through (of all places) a swimming pool forum.

    I feel good about going with a flow switch now since it is a major brand and is matched to the pump.
    The BEST part is how simple the hook up should be and the fact that the injection pump will be on it's own circuit separate from the well pump/CyleSensor.:)

    Here's an updated diagram of what I have planned. If you want, let me know if ya see any thing that looks out of place. THANKS guys!!




    Well pump-wiring.png
     
  17. Reach4

    Reach4 Well-Known Member

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    Flow switch provides a "dry contact". A relay could provide a dry contact as an alternative to the flow switch. A flow switch seems like it could be a failure point more than a relay.

    In looking at your semi-pictorial, I expect sediment to occur at and after the injector where the H2O2 added. I presume you want your sediment to be in your holding tank, right? If so, you might want to consider injecting where sediment does not have to climb uphill. Flow may be enough to cause sediment to not settle, but it might.

    I am not sure what the best way to handle this is, but maybe picture sediment appearing in the pipe. Then picture how you could get that sediment out of the pipe.

    Similarly think about how you would get sediment out of the tank. Maybe you would have a conical tank with a valve that would drain sediment. Maybe you would adapt a pipe to a wet-dry vac or a pump, and vacuum sediment off of the flat bottom of a tank.
     
  18. CenterTree

    CenterTree New Member

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    Thanks,
    Yeah sediment is on my mind. I even thought of placing a SPIN-DOWN filter inline B4 the holding tank, just to catch some sediment.
    But it would only be able to be purged if I got to it during one of the well pump's active pumping cycles. Or by removing the bottom and cleaning it I guess.


    Do you think a SPIN-DOWN would serve better B4 the flow switch or after the injector? I suspect the peroxide may cause some coagulation/sediment to form somewhere after the injector? Right?


    I will install the injector up higher ( there will be another horizontal stretch right B4 the tank).

    I do have a blow out drain valve on the bottom of the holding tank outlet. (the line that goes onto the pressure tank). So that is an access for getting out collected sediment too, maybe. That's the best I can hope for to flush the tank periodically.

    Hey thanks again.
     
  19. valveman

    valveman Cary Austin Staff Member

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    I think the flow switch driving the Stenner is a good idea!
     
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