Bosch - Tankless Waterheater ???????

Discussion in 'Tankless Water Heater Forum' started by Lunker, Oct 27, 2008.

  1. Master Plumber Mark

    Master Plumber Mark Sensitivity trainer and plumber of mens souls

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2005
    Occupation:
    Sensitivity trainer.. plumber of mens souls
    Location:
    indianapolis indiana - land of the free, home of
    you have to have ......unconditional love.....


    all of these units are nothing but trouble, and now that gas prices have tanked down to 62 a barrell they are less cost effective than ever.........

    and you can only get along with them if you are capable of "un-conditoinal love"....

    I cannot show that kind of love towards somenthing that expects me to kiss its butt every 6 months or so...with scheduled maintaince ect......


    you are very very lucky that your house did not burn down,

    you are very lucky that you were not scalded with steam when you poked your nose around the innards of the unit....

    steam scalds are not a pretty sight especially around the face.....



    but you are capable of "unconditional love" that I cannot
    show ........and have gone out and bought another one...


    turn the other cheek..... and hope that this one dont ruin your home....


    good luck with the Rheem unit.


    e
     
  2. Ladiesman271

    Ladiesman271 Homeowner

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2008
    Occupation:
    Care and maintenance of transformers


    Better stay away from 90% + rated gas furnaces if that is your attitude!

    Cleaning the water filter once a year is no big deal. Rebuilding the water every three years is no big deal either. Hardly maintenance every six months.

    I installed my tankless years ago, and I am out only about $600 installed. Bought the heater at a bankruptcy sale, and installed it myself. It is a B vent unit with standing pilot, so no high tech crap to go bad.

    A gas fireplace now sits where the old tank water heater was located. In my case I needed the floor space rather than needing to have the tankless!
     
  3. Ladiesman271

    Ladiesman271 Homeowner

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2008
    Occupation:
    Care and maintenance of transformers
    Don't all tankless water heaters need some type of scheduled maintenance? Just wondering if anyone who owns one knows what the maintenance requirements are for their own unit.
     
  4. TheOak

    TheOak New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2008
    Location:
    Idaho
    Yes, you are right as far as an impossible scenario ... you missed my point though.

    I have a large family. It is common to have two showers going at the same time, followed by other people wanting to shower, brush teeth, etc. This is a typical scenario in my home.

    Thus far my tankless has run without a hitch under that load. Prior, when I had a tank ... I would be out of hot water in the middle of the third shower.

    With the tankless ... it is like the Energizer Bunny ... it keeps going and going and going (bong bong bong bong) ... ;)
     
  5. TheOak

    TheOak New Member

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    Sep 10, 2008
    Location:
    Idaho
    I agree with this statement. I am not saying that tankless water heaters are the be all end all of water heaters and that everyone should have one.

    With my family however (2 adults, 5 kids), I needed something that could keep up. My 50 gallon basic (no special venting, etc) natural gas water heat could not keep up. Thus far the tankless is running like a champ ...
     
  6. TheOak

    TheOak New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2008
    Location:
    Idaho
    At least yearly

    My Rinnai recommends you flush the unit out with vinegar at least yearly. I do not think it even mentions the inbound water filter, but at a bare minimum I would do that yearly too.

    My furnace is right by my tankless. I have made a personal rule that whenever I change the air filter on the furnace, I will check the inbound water filter for the tankless. That should get it checked 2 to 4 times a year. Every third air filter replacement, the tankless will probably get a flush.

    Prior to installing my tankless, I asked my installer for a reference. The person I spoke to was quite nice. He did make the comment that after about 6 to 9 months they noticed their hot water flow dropping. So they called the installer. The first thing he did was look at the inbound water filter. Sure enough, it was all plugged up. He simply gave the filter a rinse and a tap and reinserted. The unit ran like new again.
     
  7. TheOak

    TheOak New Member

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    Location:
    Idaho
    I am not sure if there is a link between natural gas, propane and petroleum prices.

    I will say though that my natural gas just went up about 20% from $0.97 to $1.16.
     
  8. Furd

    Furd Engineer

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2007
    Occupation:
    Retired energy systems engineer
    Location:
    Wet side of Washington State
    I think it is unfortunate that tankless heaters are getting all the R&D. In my opinion tank-type heaters are better able to meet the needs of most people and they have far less required in the way of maintenance.

    The power vented tank-type water heaters are a step in the right direction. I think a tank-type heater with a flue damper, electric ignition and even two-stage burners (using dual thermostats like an electric water heater) would be the best of both worlds. After those improvements would come multiple flues to increase heating surface and better tanks that would not rust out. Final cost would probably be near that of a tankless but with lower installation costs and much longer (and more trouble free) life.

    Just my opinion. ;)

    BTW, there most assuredly IS a link between the prices of natural gas, propane and petroleum. Propane is a byproduct of refining crude petroleum and natural gas is often found in petroleum fields. Furthermore, the so-called petroleum companies, which are in reality ENERGY companies, control most of the production of all three fuels. The fact of your natural gas price having recently been raised has more to do with the time involved in getting rate adjustments through the state regulating commissions.
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2008
  9. TheOak

    TheOak New Member

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    Idaho
    Do they really get all the R&D though? Tankless heaters are not new. They have been around 20+ years (if not longer) in some parts of the world ... They are just "new" in North America ...
     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2008
  10. gregsauls

    gregsauls Homeowner

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    Nov 10, 2008
    Occupation:
    IT
    Location:
    Texas
    I looked at most brands out there, Bosch included, and found Bosch had some serious support issues. We settled on the Rinnai R75lsi and have loved it for our active household of 6. Down south, we don't have quite the same low inlet water temp issues to cope with.

    I did install valves to allow easy descaling once a year.

    Greg
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2009
  11. TheOak

    TheOak New Member

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    Sep 10, 2008
    Location:
    Idaho
    These were my findings too with regards to the Bosch units too unfortunately :(

    What led me to Rinnai initially was when I was house hunting. I was shown a house by the builder himself. He stated he used Rinnai all the time and absolutely loved them and his purchasers too. Positive internet searches and local references sealed the deal.

    With that being said ... if ... this Bosch unit had been serviced regularly (it sounds like it was not) ... we probably would not be discussing this now ... ;)

    Just like cars ... a little service will go a long way regardless if the car is a Kia or a BMW.
     
  12. burleymike

    burleymike New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2008
    Location:
    Idaho
    Years ago when we lived in the city and had gas service I thougt about a tankless, bosch to be exact. The price was soo much higher I just could not justify it. I sure am glad I did not.

    Now living in the country we don't have gas service. The 10 year old electric 50 gallon water heater is probably full of scale. One bath and it is out of hot water for 30 minuets.

    When I replace the rest of the galvanized plumbing I will install the new 50 gallon heater. I am thinking of keeping this old one and setting the temp to 80 degrees to pre heat the water for the new tank. In the winter when the incoming water is nearly freezing this will surly ensure a long hot shower or bath and shower.

    I could buy several tank type heaters and still not spend as much as I would on a tankless.
     
  13. Master Plumber Mark

    Master Plumber Mark Sensitivity trainer and plumber of mens souls

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2005
    Occupation:
    Sensitivity trainer.. plumber of mens souls
    Location:
    indianapolis indiana - land of the free, home of

    If you use your old heater as a pre heater for your new heater , your new heater will probably last about 30 years...

    I have run across that a couple of times
    The pre heater tank warms up the water and takes the
    stress off the new one...

    better yet, take the outer jacket and insualtion off the pre heater



    [​IMG] here is a 50 gallon electric tank
    being used as a pre heater to the gas unit...

    its 48 years old and was still working.

     
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2008
  14. varmint

    varmint builder, designer

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    builder, designer
    Location:
    northern maryland
    Okay with tankless

    FWIW, about 10 years ago I installed an Ecotherm propane tankless unit- a friend, who'd been a dealer years ago, had one laying in his barn that had been sold, never installed, and returned to him around 1986 or so. I paid him $150, and plumbed it in, since our hot water was coming from an oil-fired steam heat boiler's coil, and I didn't want it running all summer (we are in Maryland, and don't need the heat from the basement). The most expensive part was buying the powervent kit from the distributor- CEC in New England- a good company. I have used it every summer, with minimal fussing, though I did have to replace the heat exchanger several years ago- which they sent me, under warrantee! Maybe I should have a filter, but our water seems clean and low-mineral, until now, anyway. (well water, and thanks to Exxon and a 26,000 gal. underground gasoline leak, our ground water is changing). It's a small heater, but fine for the two of us, and our low flow rate requirements. I think it makes sense to only heat water as you use it.
     
  15. houptee

    houptee Member

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    Home Improvement Contractor
    Location:
    Monmouth County, NJ
    I installed 3 Takagi TK Jrs. I paid $600 each with free shipping from a company on the internet. The first year my gas bill went down $700, so they will pay for themselves in less than 3 yrs (since I installed them myself and hunted the web for lowest price). They have not required any parts yet in 2+ years so I am very happy with this brand, knock wood.
     
  16. SewerRatz

    SewerRatz Illinois Licensed Plumber

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2008
    Occupation:
    Chicago Illinois Licensed Plumber
    Location:
    Chicago, IL
    Houptee, you wouldn't happen to work for Takagi or a sales rep?:D

    Tankless water heaters are a hit or a miss thing. Lots of variables will determine if it will be reliable and how frequent maintenance must be preformed. So what may work for you just fine, will be headaches for the guy a few towns over.
     
  17. Dana

    Dana In the trades

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2009
    Location:
    01609
    The most common issues are related to water hardness & scaling, addressable by a de-scaling rinse every coupla years (more often in extreme hard-water cases) and annual filter cleaning.

    The second most common seems to be freeze-control on the heat-exchanger in very cool climes (addressable with exhaust backflow prevention at time of installation- particularly important on side-vented units with short mostly-lateral venting.)

    Nothin's perfect, but in real-world use tankless heaters are far more efficient than their tank-brethren. In many applications much more so than would evident in mere EF test numbers alone. To hit a tank's EF numbers you need to use over 60gallons/day- it's all about volume: NG & propane tank heaters have VERY high standby losses- a 0.66EF tank heater typically only delivers ~45-50% actual efficiency at daily volumes of 30 gallons, falling ever further with lower volumes.

    With tankless heaters it's primarily about the length of burn in each draw. A tankless with 0.82EF may only deliver ~75% true efficiency if the bulk of the draws are less than 2 gallons, but it'll never be much below that. A single-person household who takes quick showers may only get 25% efficiency out of a tank, but will always get better than 70% with a tankless.

    The only time a tank-heater approaches tankless efficiencies is the family of 8 that runs 3+ loads of laundry every night after the kids go to bed (and never goes on vacation.)

    Payback periods are still highly dependent on fuel costs though. In the land of $0.60/therm NG it can take quite awhile... (especially if installed by a profe$$ional with an attitude. ;-) ) Installation isn't rocket science, but in many places DIY is strictly disallowed (or won't be indemnified by the property insurer unless installed by a licensed professional.) It's more akin to installing a wall-hung boiler than installing a tank heater. Combustion air requirements, gas plumbing size/lenghts, venting lengths & materials differ pretty dramatically from a typical tank install.

    But compared to the cost of marriage-counseling about who gets stuck taking the cold shower when the tank runs out professional installation is a bargain! (Even installaion by an attitudinal-plumber!) The endless hot water aspect has it's charms- never met anybody who went back to tank after living with a tankless for awhile, even if they DID run into problems with the tankless or were annoyed by their quirks (the "cold water sandwich", etc.)

    Still, for those with hydronic heating systems nothing quite beats the convenience & performance of a indirect-fired hot water tank running off the boiler. The summertime performance of an indirect won't often beat the tankless, but the annual performance usually will. Installation will usually cost less than a standalone tankless too. Without the central flue conducting heat out of the stored water 24/7 the standby losses of an indirect are quite low, and the combustion-efficiency is whatever the performance of the boiler is on delivering the tank recovery load (it'll be less than the AFUE number in summer, but adding the tank most often improves the average system-efficiency during the heating season.)
     
  18. FloridaOrange

    FloridaOrange Plumbing Designer

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2005
    Occupation:
    Plumbing Designer
    Location:
    SW Florida
    The only time I will specify a tankless heater on my plans is if directed to and there is a sever space issue, otherwise I'll push to spec a tank unit.
     
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