Boiler, Air in lines, no purge valves

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Chago

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I have an older boiler that constantly rattles my pipes. Bleeding the radiators hasn't helped. There are three zones, one for each floor basement, 1st floor, and attic (2nd floor) with mechanical circulating pumps. that look to be on the return side of the circuit. There are several different sizes of pipes leaving the boiler. The expansion tank seems to be at the end of a run of pipes and doesn't have any type of scoop or airvent. One of the Flo Control Valve seems to have some corrosion around the connections.
I would like to do the following whenever the weather is warm enough for me to cut off the boiler for the season:
  • Add a ball valve and drain valve near the circulator pumps for each zone. Can I add them about a foot above the pumps?
  • Maybe relocate the expansion tank, if necessary, and add a scoop and airvent. If this seems logical to help with air in the pipes, where should it be relocated?
  • Replace Flo Control Valve that has corrosion
 

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Fitter30

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Is there a gauge on the boiler ? Have to read pressure with all pumps off looks like pumps push water through it. Can't see where expansion tank is piped. Flo control valve if it's not leaking wire brush it spray paint it. What is the height from basement floor to top of radiator 2nd floor, ballpark it. What type of heating devices do you have?
 

Jadnashua

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The easier way to purge air from a system is to have a purge valve up at the highest point. Open that until you get all of the air out.

You can purge it down in the basement, but it's not as reliable and requires that you have a bit more pressure to flush the air out. Note that adding fresh water will actually have some dissolved air in it, so you may need to do it more than once once that comes out and rises. Fresh air in the system is to be avoided, as it will allow rust on any ferrous components that won't stop until all of the oxygen is used up creating rust. A little won't be a major issue...frequently needing to add fresh water will shorten the life of anything ferrous (typically the pumps and often the pipes, sometimes the boiler itself).
 

Dana

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Why do you think the pipe rattling would be fixed by purging?

Are there any vents on the system (even though it doesn't have an air scoop)?

Is the system properly pressurized for the system height, and the expansion tank properly pre-charged for that pressure?
 

Chago

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Is there a gauge on the boiler ? Have to read pressure with all pumps off looks like pumps push water through it. Can't see where expansion tank is piped. Flo control valve if it's not leaking wire brush it spray paint it. What is the height from basement floor to top of radiator 2nd floor, ballpark it. What type of heating devices do you have?
Yes, there is a gauge on the boiler. Flo control valve is not leaking. The height is about 16 to 17' from basement floor to top of radiators on second floor, which are all base radiators in the attic. The main floor has standard radiators with a couple of real long radiators.
 

Chago

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Why do you think the pipe rattling would be fixed by purging?

Are there any vents on the system (even though it doesn't have an air scoop)?

Is the system properly pressurized for the system height, and the expansion tank properly pre-charged for that pressure?
It doesn't seem like there are any bents on the system. I've bled the radiators without any true success. The heating people that have come out to look at it doesn't seem to have much experience with boilers and want to sell me a new one, for the most part. I just bought the house about 18 months ago and don't want to purchase a new boiler if the problem is air and not the boiler.
 

Chago

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The easier way to purge air from a system is to have a purge valve up at the highest point. Open that until you get all of the air out.

You can purge it down in the basement, but it's not as reliable and requires that you have a bit more pressure to flush the air out. Note that adding fresh water will actually have some dissolved air in it, so you may need to do it more than once once that comes out and rises. Fresh air in the system is to be avoided, as it will allow rust on any ferrous components that won't stop until all of the oxygen is used up creating rust. A little won't be a major issue...frequently needing to add fresh water will shorten the life of anything ferrous (typically the pumps and often the pipes, sometimes the boiler itself).
The highest point is in a crawl space in the attic. Was hoping not to have to use the crawl space to bleed or purge every year. I bled the pipes in the attic with no resolve.
 

Chago

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Yes, there is a gauge on the boiler. Flo control valve is not leaking. The height is about 16 to 17' from basement floor to top of radiators on second floor, which are all base radiators in the attic. The main floor has standard radiators with a couple of real long radiators.
Better picture of the expansion tank. The plumbing ends at the expansion tank in this picture
 

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Fitter30

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Ask if the boiler has a gauge and height of piping from basement floor to top of piping. Two very important questions with out these answers nobody can answer you.
 

Jadnashua

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Air in the system will accumulate at the top so it's easiest to purge it there. But, if you get the flow fast enough and with high enough pressure, you can force it out. Hassle is, that means adding fresh water which will have some fresh air dissolved in it. Not as much as has already accumulated, but some. A good air separator can remove some of that circulating dissolved air, so if you don't have one, you might want to consider adding one.
 

Dana

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Too much air in the system would result in air-locking of the zone resulting in zero flow, and no heat. Is that's what's going on? If there is enough flow to heat all zones you're really good to go- an air scoop or vent anywhere on the system will eventually purge the remaining air.

So far you have only mentioned noise, which can have multiple causes, not all of which would be related to air in the system.

The expansion tank being on the end of a length of pipe is fine. Where it taps in to the system would ideally be near the intake side of the pump(s), to help lower the potential for impeller cavitation, which does create noise. But improper/insufficient system pressure also contributes to pump cavitation (and the associated cavitation noise).

The height from the basement floor to the top of the system is irrelevant. The vertical distance between the pressure gauge and the top of the system is what matters. The pressure needs to be high enough to keep water at the top of the system with or without the pumps running. The static (no pumping) pressure needed when the system is tepid or cool would be the vertical distance from the gauge to the top of the system measured in feet, x 0.433 psi per foot. To make up for the pressure differences induced by the pumps usually only takes an additional 3 psi. For most 1-2 story houses 12psi covers that with some margin, and there it nothing to be gained by setting it lower than that. Bumping it even a few psi higher helps reduces cavitation risk on sub-optimally plumbed pumps & expansion tanks.

So, if the distance between the basement floor and the top of the system is 17', and the gauge is located 3' above the floor, that is 14' from where the pressure is measured and the top, that' would be 14' x 0.433 psi/ft= 6 psi, add 3 psi for pumping pressures only brings it to a 9 psi minimum. So the system could/should be pressurized to 12 psi at the gauge. The air side of the expansion tank should also be pumped up to 12 psi prior to pressurizing the system, even though it's a few feet above the gauge location. Measure the air pressure while it's on the system- it should pretty much match the pressure measured gauge on the boiler, but its fine if it's ~1 psi lower (since it's at a higher elevation). If it's lower than that it doesn't have enough air charge. If that's an issue say so and I'll walk you through how to get the charge correct without pulling it from the system.

If the system pressure is too high you risk hitting a pressure high enough for the pressure relief safety valve to open and dump scalding hot water when the system is at full hot, which is usually set to 30 psi on residential systems. So unless there is a demonstrated need, keep the tepid/cool pressure at no more than 15 psi, to allow for more expansion when the water is fully hot.

Air bleeders on the baseboards in the attic are plenty good for bleeding the system. With the system off and relatively cool when you open a bleeder does air come out? A sputtering of air plus water? Water only?

Usually the air will migrate to the top-most zone, and in a system that has been running awhile (days, weeks), bleeding just one of the top radiators until it's running water-only will usually be enough. This normally only needs to be done after the system has been opened up for re-work (say, installing a vent or air scoop), or drained then re-filled. Most systems don't need to be drained and re-filled annually, but blowing out the accumulated sludge at the bottom of a cast iron system every year before the heating season is a good idea. Cracking open the boiler drain and adding water to the system without fully losing pressure or going over 25 psi (to avoid tripping the pressure relief) until the water coming out the boiler drain looks pretty clean is enough- no need to replace the radiation loop water annually.
 

Fitter30

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Too much air in the system would result in air-locking of the zone resulting in zero flow, and no heat. Is that's what's going on? If there is enough flow to heat all zones you're really good to go- an air scoop or vent anywhere on the system will eventually purge the remaining air.

So far you have only mentioned noise, which can have multiple causes, not all of which would be related to air in the system.

The expansion tank being on the end of a length of pipe is fine. Where it taps in to the system would ideally be near the intake side of the pump(s), to help lower the potential for impeller cavitation, which does create noise. But improper/insufficient system pressure also contributes to pump cavitation (and the associated cavitation noise).

The height from the basement floor to the top of the system is irrelevant. The vertical distance between the pressure gauge and the top of the system is what matters. The pressure needs to be high enough to keep water at the top of the system with or without the pumps running. The static (no pumping) pressure needed when the system is tepid or cool would be the vertical distance from the gauge to the top of the system measured in feet, x 0.433 psi per foot. To make up for the pressure differences induced by the pumps usually only takes an additional 3 psi. For most 1-2 story houses 12psi covers that with some margin, and there it nothing to be gained by setting it lower than that. Bumping it even a few psi higher helps reduces cavitation risk on sub-optimally plumbed pumps & expansion tanks.

So, if the distance between the basement floor and the top of the system is 17', and the gauge is located 3' above the floor, that is 14' from where the pressure is measured and the top, that' would be 14' x 0.433 psi/ft= 6 psi, add 3 psi for pumping pressures only brings it to a 9 psi minimum. So the system could/should be pressurized to 12 psi at the gauge. The air side of the expansion tank should also be pumped up to 12 psi prior to pressurizing the system, even though it's a few feet above the gauge location. Measure the air pressure while it's on the system- it should pretty much match the pressure measured gauge on the boiler, but its fine if it's ~1 psi lower (since it's at a higher elevation). If it's lower than that it doesn't have enough air charge. If that's an issue say so and I'll walk you through how to get the charge correct without pulling it from the system.

If the system pressure is too high you risk hitting a pressure high enough for the pressure relief safety valve to open and dump scalding hot water when the system is at full hot, which is usually set to 30 psi on residential systems. So unless there is a demonstrated need, keep the tepid/cool pressure at no more than 15 psi, to allow for more expansion when the water is fully hot.

Air bleeders on the baseboards in the attic are plenty good for bleeding the system. With the system off and relatively cool when you open a bleeder does air come out? A sputtering of air plus water? Water only?

Usually the air will migrate to the top-most zone, and in a system that has been running awhile (days, weeks), bleeding just one of the top radiators until it's running water-only will usually be enough. This normally only needs to be done after the system has been opened up for re-work (say, installing a vent or air scoop), or drained then re-filled. Most systems don't need to be drained and re-filled annually, but blowing out the accumulated sludge at the bottom of a cast iron system every year before the heating season is a good idea. Cracking open the boiler drain and adding water to the system without fully losing pressure or going over 25 psi (to avoid tripping the pressure relief) until the water coming out the boiler drain looks pretty clean is enough- no need to replace the radiation loop water annually.
Since when is height not part of a pressure calculation. Do you how high is basement is ,first floor and second i don't it's a old house. Boiler looks like its piped on the discharge of the pumps. Don't even know if there are coin or radiator key vents on the radiators. Looking at a tridicator can be confusing the first time.
 

Dana

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Since when is height not part of a pressure calculation. Do you how high is basement is ,first floor and second i don't it's a old house. Boiler looks like its piped on the discharge of the pumps. Don't even know if there are coin or radiator key vents on the radiators. Looking at a tridicator can be confusing the first time.

If you read the response in total you'll note that height very much is part of the pressure calculation, but not the height from the basement floor. The relevant reference plane starts at the pressure gauge, which is not at the basement floor, but at a higher elevation.

While in most cases the error of using the basement floor rather than the pressure gauge elevation as the zero point would only add about 1 psi or so, that is not always the case.
 

Sylvan

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I wonder why no one asked about the missing back flow preventor missing? 9 D for example
 

Sylvan

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Dana, seems you took a page out of one of my postings on another site from 1999 (your right on the money)

Tri indicator gauge is normally required

altitude, temperature , pressure (ASME section IV and NBBI guide lines)

1- Cold fill gives the static pressure (altitude) and then it is set with the red arrow so the next person knows the height of the upper most heating unit (never the basement)

2- Add 3 -5 PSI for a fudge factor to make sure there is positive pressure for the upper most floors and over coming friction losses

3- Fire the boiler up and note the pressure then the system can be fine tuned by increasing or decreasing the auto feeder


For example

25 feet above the boiler would give a static pressure of 10.82 PSI

If you take 10.82 X 2.31 = 25 feet

Add 3 PSI on the feeder

https://www.supplyhouse.com/Burnham...OK7eZfqG82GevyQE8ZkIoHBOy97WeIExoC9tYQAvD_BwE
 

Sylvan

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Notice the absent of a back flow preventor ? This would pass a boiler inspection BUT will fail the plumbing inspection


index.php
 
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Sylvan

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Also notice the UNION before the shut off valve? Supply valve (GATE) higher up

This would be a great test for journeymen called an error sheet picking up either code violations or poor plumbing practices

Also it would not pass the energy code as there is no insulation of the heating lines (forget markings)

Galvanized band iron on a copper line wow galvanic corrosion and allows for lots of shaking of the lines when the circulator kick in

No fire proofing of the walls, ceiling exposed wood in a boiler room another serious code infraction, this would cause the boiler to be red tagged and taken out of service

Anyone care to pick up some more
 

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Ask if the boiler has a gauge and height of piping from basement floor to top of piping. Two very important questions with out these answers nobody can answer you.

What the heck does a gauge "read" from the floor ??? ALL reading are ABOVE the boiler not below
 

Jadnashua

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FWIW, the boiler I have won't turn on unless the pressure is at least 12-psi because of an interlock, even if it was serving a single story structure.

If your pressure is too low, you could have it sucking in air (if there's a leak) and lower the boiling point, neither of which is a good thing.

Ideally, you'd never have to add water to a system once it is commissioned unless you've done some maintenance. Adding water means adding some dissolved gasses, which means oxygen, which will create rust.
 
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