AM10 definition of "supply temperature" with Buderus GB142

Users who are viewing this thread

000utback

Member
Messages
31
Reaction score
2
Points
8
Location
Harrisonburg, VA
I am learning about my new GB142 with the AM10 outdoor reset control. From the AM10 INSTALLATION AND OPERATING INSTRUCTIONS, pg 10:
first menu = current outdoor temperature display
second menu = supply temperature setpt {installer set at 32F}
third menu = target boiler temperature when outdoors is 14F {installer set at 180}
4th menu = target boiler temperature when outdoors is 68 {installer set at 70}
5th menu = warm weather shut down {installer set at 72}

I understand that the 3rd and 4th settings create the straight line used to set the boiler temperature based on outdoor temperature. The 5th menu setting forces the boiler off in warm weather, even if a t'stat is calling for heat.
But doggone what does the second menu setting "supply temperature set point" mean? allowable input range is 32 to 194.
 

Dana

In the trades
Messages
7,889
Reaction score
509
Points
113
Location
01609
I believe that's the maximum output temperture for the boiler, the "C" line in figure 6 of the manual. (The very low numbers would apply only to snowmelt applications or something?) Is it actually heating the house?

The notion that you'd need 180F water @ +14F seems high for most systems, and 70F water could short-cycle the boiler unless you have high-mass radiation such as big cast-iron radiators.

A couple of napkin-math numbers to run- if you have a heating history on the house, take the fuel use agaings heating degree-day data from the highest-use months last year to estimate the 99% design heat load, then measure up your radiation to figure out what water temp it takes to deliver that load, and at what water temperature the boiler is going to be short-cycling on zone calls using this blog as a guide. With that bit of analysis it's possible to hit pretty close on the reset curve on the first try and tweak it in from there. If you like I can walk you through that stuff here.
 

000utback

Member
Messages
31
Reaction score
2
Points
8
Location
Harrisonburg, VA
Dana, thanks for the quick response and help offer. I continued to learn this from the manuals - 1) The AM10 manual says "range 32-194"; it does NOT say "adjustment range". 2) the BG142 manual says my second menu value is "the current supply temperature COMPUTED based on the outdoor temperature". So, I was wrong in thinking that my installer set that value at 32F, which of course I couldn't understand. Then I called Buderus USA, and in 10 minutes I learned that yes, the second menu value over the radiator symbol is the target temperature calculated from the heating curve, AND, the display value of 32, which is obviously fictitious, means that there is either no call for heat, or the outdoor sensor is warmer than the warm weather shut off. So, now we all know that.
The reason I got into this, was on the first cool days of fall I turned a couple t'stats on. Their pumps came on, but the rooms never warmed up, the radiators weren't hot, and a trip to the boiler showed pumps running but no fire. The outdoor sensor showed 66; wwsd setting was 72; and as mentioned above the heating curve is set at 70F boiler for 68 outdoors. The boiler water was showing 75. Looks like if I change the lower setpt from 70 to 80, I'll get a little heat on these few fall/spring days. Next time I hear pumps running with no fire, I'll just gradually increment the low T setting until the burner fires enough to satisfy the room tstat.
The fact that this only happens for a few days in fall and spring confirms that my installer was very close in his initial settings. I still need to confirm the coldest cold weather setting. Have to watch how long the pumps are running to keep up.
 

Dana

In the trades
Messages
7,889
Reaction score
509
Points
113
Location
01609
Ideally whenever the heat load is above the minimum-fire output it would be running super-long nearly continuous burns, at the lowest possible output temperature, since that maximizes it's efficiency (comfort too.) I'd still be surprised if you actually needed 180F water at +14F outdoors, and bumping the curve higher than it needs to be takes a hit in efficiency. Any time the entering water temperature at the boiler is above 125F it's not getting any condensing efficiency.

With the curve set to 70F water at 68F outdoor temps and 180F output @ +14F the output is increasing about 2F for every degree below 68F, and you'll be out of the condensing zone while it's even still above freezing outdoors. If it'll still keep up with the bottom of the curve set to 150F or lower it'll be condensing most of the time. Designers of new systems will usually shoot for no more than 140F water at the 99% outside design temperature, which means it's condensing the vast majority of the time, and will usually hit it's AFUE numbers. Harrisonburg's 99% design temp is +16F in the ACCA's tables, but 14F might be the 99th percentile temperature bin in some other data set.

With high-mass radiators it won't usually short-cycle the boiler even when the load is less than the min-fire output, unless it's broken up into micro-zones, so the ultra-low 70F output temp isn't likely to be a problem on your system. But time the burns when it's mild out as a sanity check.
 

000utback

Member
Messages
31
Reaction score
2
Points
8
Location
Harrisonburg, VA
Thanks for the discussion. I wanted a new boiler installation for YEARS and couldn't find a local contractor. Finally word of mouth got me to the right guy, and it took 2 weeks to tear out 1200# of steel pipe & boiler, over 200 pounds of copper, etc, and give me exactly what I (thought I) wanted. I did a good job of limiting my DIY/internet/degreed engineer comments, and supported him as the expert. BUT, the 2 main questions I had were why he set the boiler to fire 190 when called for DHW, and why he set the top point of the reset curve at 180. Your quote of 140max was totally new to me, and I have been doing lots of reading. Thus the delayed response.
Saturday I was in the boiler room most of the day. 54-57F outside, heavy cloud cover. With the original curve of 180/70, the boiler was short-cycling for zone 4 (the only tstat turned on). I changed the curve to 140/75, to address lack of heat in mild weather and improve condensing. This put T_target at 90. The boiler T varied from 82-100, and the zone pump NEVER cut off. Set at 152/77, T_target=95, boiler ran 86-104, zone pump NEVER shut off. I set it at 165/77 to assure comfort (this is an AirBnB in an in-law quarters addition)(thus I never went in the rooms to check T) and went to bed.
Thoughts: 1) With the water T at 84-86, the heat system isn't doing squat. Why does Buderus allow the water T to drop so far below target? The boiler would easily bring the water up to cut-off, but then the T would quickly drop off, and the 5 minute surge of heat was not enough to impact the tstat.
2) I am getting worried that the efficiency target of 140F is not valid for my zone 4 (recessed wall heaters with antique fin tube and cast iron bases), or the rooms where I replaced 3 cast iron rads with fintube baseboard. (During that remodeling project 3 yrs ago I still had the antique 185F oil boiler.) So I'm wondering if I was mislead when the installer quoted 97% efficiency, that he should have told me I'd have to improve the emitters in several of the rooms in order to utilize the lower operating temps.
so it seems like, as the system stands now, I'm getting the efficiency of my new LP boiler with modulating fire, but won't maximise efficiency unless I add/change many existing emitters. Bummer city.
 

000utback

Member
Messages
31
Reaction score
2
Points
8
Location
Harrisonburg, VA
PS: The old system was oil/hot water, with 500 gal oil storage, so fill-ups did not correspond to usage. Also we burn about 2 cords/yr in a small central woodstove. And we closed doors to avoid heating 3-4 rooms. Also, the new boiler added heat to 300 ft2 more space. So, I don't have a valid relative value for historical fuel consumption. I will say in general that our first season with the new LP system was more expensive than I expected, but we heated the entire house and it was comfortable. I'll continue to f'up on your other recommended heat analysis.
 

Dana

In the trades
Messages
7,889
Reaction score
509
Points
113
Location
01609
Replacing cast iron rads with fin-tube baseboard is almost always a mistake. Fin tube has really non-linear output at water temps below ~115F or so, whereas rads are fairly linear all the way down to 80F water. The thermal mass of the water volume & cast iron also limits the amount of short cycling. Fin tube is extremely low-mass. To emit the full 25,000 BTU/hr min-fire output of your boiler without cycling takes about 125' of baseboard. With anything less than 100' it's likely to short-cycle due to the limited thermal mass. Even if the baseboard replaced radiators of equivalent output, the radiators are likely to have had 10x the thermal mass to work with, and far far fewer burn cycles per hour would be occurring.

97% efficiency is possible, but only if it can be run at sufficiently low temperature without short cycling. That's probably what the contractor was trying to tell you about improving the heat emitters.

With a perfectly dialed-in outdoor reset curve the zones would be running almost continuously during cooler weather. To some that may seem like it's "struggling to keep up" or "... doing squat...", but as long as the room temperatures aren't dropping it doesn't really matter if it takes a couple of hours (or even a couple of days) of run time before the thermostat is satisfied. A rapidly satisfied thermostat means the reset curve is set too high. Morgan Audetat, a guy from Minnesota who used to post here fairly regularly, had one system that ran without a thermostat, only a perfectly dialed-in reset curve for control that ran constantly all winter. The indoor temp stayed within a few degree window all winter long, probably varying a bit based on the sunny vs cloudy, calm vs. windy conditions, but ran the pumps at a 100% duty cycle for months on end. (Most of us "semi-normal" people never tune the curves that closely. )

The storage temperature of the domestic hot water typically has to be at least 20F below the boiler output temp. If the boiler was set up for 190F during calls for hot water that might still be fine, but the delta-T across the boiler needs to be checked. Most boilers can't tolerate a difference of more than 50F between it's output and entering water temperature indefinitely. (I'm not sure what the specs are for this boiler.)

It's almost never the case that any heating zone would ever need 180F out of the reset curve. Most houses previously heated with an oil boiler that had been set to a high-limit of 180F do just fine with 140F max at the 99% outside design temp or lower. Does the zone with the recessed fin tube convectors and cast iron baseboard keep up, or does it actually lose ground at the lower curve setting?

How much of what type of radiation is there on the allegedly short-cycling zone 4?

To limit short cycling the boilers are set to trip off when the water temp goes too far above the reset target temp, and don't re-fire until it's several degrees below the target temp. If the curve's target setpoint was 90F and it tripped off at 100F, turning back on at 82F the boiler is behaving correctly, with an ~8F overshoot/~8F undershoot for the ~91F average. What that indicates is that there isn't sufficient zone radiation to emit the minimum-fire output of the boiler with ~90F water. The amount of thermal mass on the zone plumbing & radiation determines how quickly it slews from 82F to 100F at that water temperature.

For example, say there's 100lbs of water (or water equivalent thermal mass) in the zone radiation and it's only emitting 5000 BTU/hr at 90F, and that the 5000BTU/hr emitted is actuall the heat load- the room doesn't drop in temperature. But the min-fire output of the the boiler is 25,000 BTU/hr, so there is 20,000 BTU/hr of excess (= 333 BTU per minute) going into the system that isn't being emitted, thus the temperature begins to rise at 333/100lbs = 3.33F per minute.

With a +/-8F hysteresis around the setpoint (16F total swing) the burn times will be about 16F/3.33= 4.8 minutes. If set up perfectly the heat load is 5000 BTU/hr and the minimum fire output is 25,000 BTU/hr, so the duty cycle on the burner will be 5000/25,000= 20%, or about 12 minutes of burn time per hour. At 4.8 minutes per burn that's fewer than 3 full cycles per hour, which is not at all abusive of the system, efficiency stays high, only 2-3 ignition cycles & flue purges per hour.

But if there happens that there is only 10 lbs of thermal mass in the zone it'll have the same duty cycle, but 10x the numbers of cycles, with a boiler & efficiency destroying 0.48 minute (29 seconds) per burn time per cycle and a couple dozen burn cycles per hour.

Your reality is probably somewhere between those numbers, but it's worth figuring out what the numbers really are. Anything over 3 minutes is fine, and anything fewer than 5 cycles per hour is still pretty good.
 
Top
Hey, wait a minute.

This is awkward, but...

It looks like you're using an ad blocker. We get it, but (1) terrylove.com can't live without ads, and (2) ad blockers can cause issues with videos and comments. If you'd like to support the site, please allow ads.

If any particular ad is your REASON for blocking ads, please let us know. We might be able to do something about it. Thanks.
I've Disabled AdBlock    No Thanks