Advice on my situation of sizing water softener

[Loiwin]

Hi all,

I’ve done a lot of research and read through many threads here and got a general idea of which size softener to get, however I’m still unsure of which size to buy for my situation, I have received different recommendations from multiple sellers/plumbers. I would greatly appreciate your advise and expertise.

I am going between Fleck 5600 10% resin 48,000 or 64,000 grain. There are currently 4 people in our home (2 toddlers), however I am planning for the future and their growth and possibly another child.

At the moment we use minimal water, only ~35 gallons each per day, hardness is ~15 gpg per city (just ordered test kit to make sure). I am assuming as they get a little older in let’s say 5 years they will be using average 60 gallons. So now we would use 2100 grains a day, but looking forward we might use 3600 a day, we want to regenerate ~14 days or longer per recommendation.

I have read with a larger softener (64k) I can put less salt in it to soften 30000 grain every 14 days for now, and in the future use more salt to increase water usage, however the regeneration time now would be more likely a month, we would have to manually override every 14 days. With the 48k it would still be perfect size for us but wouldn’t we be using more salt and potentially too small when the kids get older?

Is the 64k too big for us at the moment we would need to definitely manually override regenerations?

Been going back and forth for days, any advise would greatly help us! Thanks

 

[Reach4]

You should get the 2 cubic ft "64000" for 16 grains and 5 people. If you used half of the calculated 300 gallons per day, it would still be a good fit. 1.5 cubic ft would not be too bad, but the numbers predict that you would regenerate about every 6 days. Yes you might use less water, but your hardness may be more than 16. Yes, the city may report an average of 15, but the settings you use should be for near the maximum hardness. You don't want to be reprogramming through the year as the mix between surface water and well water changes.

The 48000 and 64000 should not be used in calculations. It is in effect a convention but it is only achievable by using a *lot* of salt. Instead use 20000 to 24000 grains per cubic foot of resin in your calculations. That corresponds to using 6 to 8 pounds of salt per cubic ft for regeneration.

 

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[Loiwin]

Thanks for your quick input Reach, so it would make sense to go with 2.0 cf only if I’m using the correct (less) amount of salt to get the correct grains softener per water I’m using correct?

For example if I get the 2 cf softener but fill it up with salt to the top, and if I ran override regeneration every 14 days I would be wasting that much more of softener water correct? And overtime this would be bad on the resin if I regenerate more often than the 2 cf can stand?

I’m not too familiar with all the numbers, so every month we use 4000 gallons or 2000 gallons every 2 weeks. How much salt should I put in the 48k vs the 64k to get the amount of softener water I need?

Thanks again

 

[Reach4]

You would have the "DO" (Day Override) set to 28 or 30 days. Unless you were away, that would not likely come into the picture.

A 2.5 cuft softener with a 13x54 tank would not be a waste. With city water, as long as you don't get to the DO interval, the capacity was not wasted. The concern about going 3 weeks without regen is for those who have iron being treated by the softener. With city water, the iron has all been converted before it gets to the house.

You put salt in the brine tank, and add more when that runs low. The softener, based on the controller settings, does the metering. So every few months you add more salt. Some people go a year. Initially, I kept less salt in the brine tank, because I wanted to check things. Now I fill it higher. Salt comes in 40, 44, or 50 pound bags for home use usually. You can add multiple bags, or you could routinely pick up one bag every time you go to the warehouse store. Stop buying when you have too many bags piled up.

Some opt for a backwashing carbon filter before the softener. It can remove chlorine and organic chemicals. I don't know what I would do in that regard. What you could do is to leave space.

If you don't have a softener loop (where the builder already did the plumbing), remember you normally don't want to soften the outside water. You don't want to water the plants with softened water.

Regarding the recommended minimum size for a softener, the usual is to try to not often get less than 7 days between regenerations. Every night at 2am, or whatever you changed that to, the softener checks if there is enough reserve to make it for another day. If there is not, it regenerates. Odds are that the softener will have enough to make it thru half of the day. So we could think of it as leaving half a day on the table. For example, if the softener had enough capacity for 5.5 days, the unused amount would be 0.5/5.5 = 9.0%. If the capacity was 7.5 days worth, the leftover would be 6.7%. That was considered acceptable. For longer periods, the process is more efficient with bigger up to the DO point. But they are diminishing returns.

You don't need to factor in occasional visitors staying for a few days. For that, you might regenerate the night before they come. Then you know that you will have enough capacity even though the water usage might double while they are there.

 

[Loiwin]

Thanks reach. Really appreciate your answers. Another forum a family of 2 uses about the same water as we do now and they have a 2 cf softener (64k) and they claim it is too big with thoughts of channeling?

Will this channeling occur with me as long as a I regenerate let’s say every 18 days? I’m just confused, if I get the 64k should I set it up to only soften the amount of grains I’ll be using in those 18 days? Thanks

 

[Reach4]

Thanks reach. Really appreciate your answers. Another forum a family of 2 uses about the same water as we do now and they have a 2 cf softener (64k) and they claim it is too big with thoughts of channeling?

Channeling should not be a problem with a 2 cuft softener. That is a problem with big softener. Another factor is SFR. That is the gpm you can put through without much hardness leakage. 1.5 can do up to 12 gpm... more than enough for a house. 13 gpm for a 2.0.

Will this channeling occur with me as long as a I regenerate let’s say every 18 days? I’m just confused, if I get the 64k should I set it up to only soften the amount of grains I’ll be using in those 18 days? Thanks

No. You set up the softner to soften the number of grains it can do with 6 to 8 pounds of salt per cubic ft. It calculates the number of gallons that corresponds to and subtracts the reserve. There is a gallon countdown. If the countdown hits zero by 2am, it regenerates. (remember that when it hit zero, you still had the reserve) That could be 14 days. Or 23 days or 9 days. No need to worry. Its automatic. For your design, you try to keep the predicted number of days between 7 and 28. No big penalty for being outside of the forecast range at times.

 

[Bannerman]

Almost any softener can be programmed for the capacity to be delivered before a regeneration cycle is initiated. When reducing the capacity to be utilized, the salt efficiency will increase but the softener will need to regenerate more often.

For instance, a 1.5 cuft softener can be programmed to use 9 lbs salt to deliver 30K grains usable capacity to provide a salt efficiency of 3,333 grains per pound. That same softener may be programmed to deliver 36K grains while using 12 lbs salt to result in a 3,000 grains/lb efficiency.

A 2 cuft softener could deliver 40K grains capacity using 12 lbs for 3,333 grains/lb efficiency or 48K grains capacity using 16 lbs salt (3K/lb).

The salt used is not determined by the salt quantity in the tank but is controlled by the amount of water programmed to enter the brine tank to create the appropriate quantity of brine associated to the capacity to be regenerated.

Channelling may occur when a drastically oversized softener is used where there is minimal flow through the softener and regeneration does not occur frequently. The sizes being considered here will not create a channelling situation with a family of 4, even if regeneration occurs on a monthly basis.

 

[Loiwin]

Thanks everyone for your responses, so if I may if I can give you this scenario if this sounds right to you guys. So I’m going to go with 64k grain softener.

At the moment we use roughly 2100 grains per day. So using 6-10 pounds of salt to get 30000 grains every 14 days regeneration sounds about right? Then the softener would automatically calculate how many gallons to use, and I would fill my brine tank almost full with salt.

Should I increase the regeneration time to produce more softened grains? How would you guys recommend going about regeneration times? Thanks

 

[Bannerman]

So using 6-10 pounds of salt to get 30000 grains every 14 days

There is no variance to the amount of salt used. The specific amount of salt relates to a specific amount of capacity to be regenerated.

If the entire volume of resin is fully regenerated when programmed as it should be, regenerating more capacity than will utilized will only waste salt. The 1-day reserve capacity will often not be fully used but properly programmed settings will restore that capacity whether it has been used or not.

Suggest using the capacities and salt settings specified above. With 2 cuft, 12 lbs total salt (6 lbs/cuft) will restore 40K grains usable capacity (including reserve). Suggest ensuring that entire capacity is used by setting DO as 28 days. If that capacity is all used within that 28 days, what does it matter?

With 40K usable capacity and the 2100 daily grains usage you specified, then the regeneration frequency is likely to be 40,000 / 2100 = 19 days.

In reducing capacity and salt usage below 6 lbs/cuft, the resulting water quality will be reduced as there will be higher hardness leakage through the softener. The softener will also regenerate more frequently requiring additional water.

The 6 and 8 lb settings specified above are good compromises between salt efficiency, water efficiency and water quality.

With water obtained from multiple sources, it is recommended to program an additional 2-3 grains hardness to that tested at your location. That will anticipate variances in hardness due to daily town water use and distribution system maintenance.

Also, ensure a gravel under bed is installed. The gravel bed below the resin will help to distribute water flow to help ensure water travels through the entire resin column, thereby reducing the potential for channelling as well as other benefits.

Once the softener is programmed appropriately and filled with salt, leave it alone to do its job. This is not a device that needs constant babysitting or adjustments.

 

[Reach4]

Then the softener would automatically calculate how many gallons to use, and I would fill my brine tank almost full with salt.

Somebody calculates how much salt to use for each regen. If using 9 pounds of salt for each regen, the softener puts 3 gallons of water into the brine tank. That dissolves 9 pounds of salt.

Whether the softener does the calculations or the person setting up the softener, it does not matter. There is a device that meters water at a particular rate (BLFC). If it meters 0.125 gpm, the brine fill time would be 3/0.125=24 minutes. If the BLFC does 0.5 gpm, that would be 6 minutes to get the 3 gallons. 3 gallons disolves 9 pounds of salt.

Should I increase the regeneration time to produce more softened grains? How would you guys recommend going about regeneration times? Thanks

I currently use 8 pounds of salt per cubic ft, which is 12 pounds per regeneration. The difference is that I have 1.5 cuft of resin. Usually people refer to the per cuft number rather than the actual salt used. That allows easier discussion with different size units. I expect 3.67 regenerations from a 44 pound bag of Morton salt pellets. That bag costs me $5.58 plus tax, but that varies with location due to costs. If I were trying to reduce salt use, I would use 7 or 6 or some such lb/cuft. This is easy to change with most softeners. It is not something that you have to stick with. Back in the old days, people often used 15 or 16. California wants people to use less than 5.

 

[Loiwin]

Guys (or gals) I can’t thank you enough for all the great information. Everything is making more sense.

So if I use a 1.5 cf softener now to soften 30000k grains, it will still use the same amount of water as a 2 cf softener, except use more salt. Also the regeneration times with either will be the same if I program them the same with 30000k grains in mind. The difference will be if I increase my grain usage, I can also use less salt with the 2 cf and it will also be able to handle more load?

 

[Loiwin]

So basically.... go with 2 cf softener is the verdict? For now I can reduce my capacity to meet my low grain usage about 30000k, and as my family grows it can also be beneficial to handle higher grain usage? And I will also get a high flow rate.

Any actual bad reasons to use the 1.5 cf?

 

[Bannerman]

So if I use a 1.5 cf softener now to soften 30000k grains, it will still use the same amount of water as a 2 cf softener, except use more salt.

In paying attention to the salt efficiency specified above, you will find the 1.5 cuft and 2 cuft softeners can be programmed to provide the same exact salt efficiency. The 2 cuft softener will use more salt per regeneration cycle due to the larger capacity contained, but will also require less frequent regeneration cycles due to the increased capacity.

A 1.5 cuft softener will typically utilize a 10" diameter tank which will require 2.4 gpm BackWash and Rapid Rinse flow rates whereas the 2 cuft will use a 12" tank which will require ~3.5 gpm.

There will also likely be a slight variance in Brine Draw and Slow Rinse flow rates depending on the injector installed in each. While the 2 cuft will use higher gpm, the reduction in regeneration frequency may offset any additional water use.

You seem to be obsessed with 30,000 grain capacity for some reason. If you're stuck on that, use the 1.5 cuft with a 6 lb/cuft salt dose. If planning to purchase a 2 cuft, the appropriate programmed capacity with a 6 lb/cuft salt dose would be 40,000 grains.

 

[Reach4]

So if I use a 1.5 cf softener now to soften 30000k grains, it will still use the same amount of water as a 2 cf softener, except use more salt.

That seems a bit convoluted. .... a couple of problems. When you say "it will use the same amount of water...." are you referring to the 50 gallons (or whatever the softener uses) for backwashing and rinsing?

Also the regeneration times with either will be the same if I program them the same with 30000k grains in mind.

I don't see your point. Brine fill time is part of regeneration, but that time is not important to the user. The softener is usually back in service during brine fill. I presume your regeneration time that you are referring to is the time when the softener is in bypass, right? The bigger softener will regenerated less frequently. So it will be in bypass less each year.

The difference will be if I increase my grain usage, I can also use less salt with the 2 cf and it will also be able to handle more load?

I don't know what to make of that sentence. I have a couple of theories, but let's take "increase my grain usage". Do you mean if you use more water per day?

So let me make some statements about 2 cuft vs 1.5 cubic ft softener.

1. two cuft will probably use a little less salt per gallon softened due to the regenerations being less frequent. How significant the difference is depends on water usage. Remember we can estimate that each regen leaves about 1/2 day of capacity on the table.
2. each can use 6 or 7 or 8 or other pounds of salt per cubic ft for each regeneration.
3. the regeneration time would usually be about the same for 1.5 as for 2.0 for each regen -- the softener will be in bypass for over an hour usually. Somebody flushing toilets or washing hands while the softener is in bypass is not a big deal. Doing a load of wash should be avoided during that time. Being in bypass means that the hard water passes through if water is used while the softener is in bypass.
4. 2.0 will soften more gallons between regenerations.

 

[Loiwin]

Sorry for all the confusion, it is a little difficult to explain through typing, plus my knowledge is not high on this subject matter

I keep saying 30000 grain usage bc this is what our family will be using every 2 weeks or so in the near future, which is the regeneration times recommended by the manufacturer. How would I actually calculate our grain usage on the meter? Based on how many Grains we would use in 2 weeks? What if I want to regenerate every month instead?


Let’s say I get the 2 cf and we program it as stated above and it regenerates every 50 days, however I want to regenerate no longer than 28 days to keep the resin healthy, is this indeed a wasteful purchase?


I am planning for future growth and just concerned getting the 2 cf now with such low water usage would be detrimental or more wasteful than the 1.5 cf.

Someone from aquatell stated getting 2 cf would be too large now and would be hard on the resin

Sorry everyone for any confusion, I am definitely learning in this post

 

[Reach4]

I keep saying 30000 grain usage bc this is what our family will be using every 2 weeks or so in the near future, which is the regeneration times recommended by the manufacturer. How would I actually calculate our grain usage on the meter? Based on how many Grains we would use in 2 weeks? What if I want to regenerate every month instead?

Start over. 1. How much water per day do you want to predict? 134 gallons per day? 140 as you started with... Fine. But then you started predicting doubling your usage and planning based on that. Revisit that. Or make a range... between 130 and 260??? If that, then get a softener that will go 7 days or so at 260 gallons. That softener would go 14 days or so at 130 gallons per day... And just to be clear, when I say gallons per day, I mean average gallons per day. We are not going to worry about the big event day for this purpose.

One more thing: you will not soften your outdoor water except for your mister and swamp cooler if any. So deduct for any plant watering.

Hardness. You said ~15, and I used 16 in calculations. I said that hardness can change, and you should normally set up for the max rather than the average. 2. What number will you use? Maybe phone the water department and ask what the max hardness has been over the seasons.

This is the sizing stage. If hardness changes after you get the softener, you will adjust.

Let’s say I get the 2 cf and we program it as stated above and it regenerates every 50 days, however I want to regenerate no longer than 28 days to keep the resin healthy, is this indeed a wasteful purchase?

Yes.

 

[Bannerman]

You have calculated your family's daily consumption to be 2100 grains/day.

The 2 cuft unit programmed for 40,000 grains capacity using an extremely efficient 6 lbs salt/cuft or 12 lbs total, will likely use all of that capacity in 19 days.

While you didn't define the control valve model, I suspect you are referring to a Fleck 5600 SXT (Digital) softener control which will utilize a metering device to measure the amount of water use between regeneration cycles.

In programming the controller, the intended capacity will need to be programmed as will the raw water hardness amount, the salt dose to be used as well as the reserve capacity which will normally be one day's usage. The controller will then calculate the usable gallons between regeneration cycles and will automatically initiate a regeneration when all or almost all of that capacity has been consumed.

The Days Override setting is the maximum number of days between regen cycles if the meter has not initiated one.

Regeneration is typically programmed to occur at 2 am when residents are normally sleeping and there is little if any water being used. You do not need to set the regeneration interval as the water meter will keep track of usage and will initiate regeneration automatically as appropriate.

Softeners are often sized to provide the household soft water requirements on a weekly basis. When the raw water does not contain iron (ie: town water), then a somewhat larger softener may be used and the anticipated regeneration interval may be extended up to 30 days without concern.

Although 2 cuft of resin will contain 64,000 grains capacity when the resin is manufactured, you will not be exhausting all capacity between regeneration cycles which is the proper method to obtain increased salt efficiency.

 

[Loiwin]

I had a range of 140 gallons to 240 gallons to plan for the future, since my children are now toddlers but once they are older and in their teens they will be using much more water (teenager showers etc)

So my plan based on everyone’s advice is to get 2 cf unit, use 6 lbs of salt to soften 40000 grains for my water usage now which is about 19 days regeneration using 2100 grains per day.

Planning for the future, if we use 3600 grains per day and still only soften or set up the meter for 40000 grains we would regenerate every 11 days, or if I increase the capacity (use more salt) I could regenerate farther days apart.

Does this sound efficient/ok plan of action? Would you still recommend the 2 cf or 1.5 cf unit based on my thoughts above?

If I have someone install the softener will they should they be knowledgeable to achieve this if I tell them? Should I have bags of salt ready the day of installation and how many pounds?

If when regenerating only a few days early before my capacity is up, is that a great waste? Or what capacity/gallons left over in the softener before regeneration is considered a waste?

Does the seller put the gravel in for me before delivery/purchase? Or is this added after I receive the softener?

Thanks all, I think I’m almost there!

 

[Reach4]

I had a range of 140 gallons to 240 gallons to plan for the future, since my children are now toddlers but once they are older and in their teens they will be using much more water (teenager showers etc)

For 240 gallons per day, 1.5 is enough. At 16 grains, gives 7.81 days using 6 pounds per cubic ft of resin. Therefore the smaller one is in the good range for your current high (240) GPD number.


For 140 gallons per day, and 2 cuft of resin, expect 17.9 days. Therefore the bigger one is in the good range for your low (140) GPD number.

Therefore either 1.5 or 2.0 cuft would meet your stated goals.

 

[Loiwin]

For 240 gallons per day, 1.5 is enough. At 16 grains, gives 7.81 days using 6 pounds per cubic ft of resin. Therefore the smaller one is in the good range for your current high (240) GPD number.


For 140 gallons per day, and 2 cuft of resin, expect 17.9 days. Therefore the bigger one is in the good range for your low (140) GPD number.

Therefore either 1.5 or 2.0 cuft would meet your stated goals.

It’s better to get longer days between regeneration correct? So 2 cf would be better in my situation? Basically, which size would you choose based on my situation? Thanks.....