Dunbar Plumbing
Master Plumber
This is a very 'involved' situation so I'll describe it the best way I can.
Customer called, having issues with a 10 year old water heater with new elements, new upper/lower thermostats, heater still isn't heating water.
I explain like I would all 10 year heaters and state that a "new" water heater is the best investment. Embeds the warranty of product/guarantee of product reliability because the cost is no different to rebuild or replace.
When you factor the time for a plumber to fetch OEM parts for the heater, not anything retrofit in regards to upper/lower thermostats, replacement elements.
I learned from my mistakes years ago and the parts that come out are the parts that go in, no exception on water heaters.
Was very thorough upon arriving, found non related issues that brings me to posting this topic. A defective thermal expansion tank and high water pressure doesn't cause 'no hot water' calls. But I found it, addressed part of that equation and installed a new water heater as their best financial interest in this matter, no matter what the current situation is as we speak.
The efficiency of water heaters dwindle the longer they are in operation, including sediment buildup, new government regs that require heavier insulation.
Onto the problem,
I installed this new water heater, it has:
30 amp breaker - Couldn't figure out the name on this breaker panel.
10-2 wire leading from the panel to the heater.
Structure is 10 years old, old as the water heater, old as the wiring.
5 days prior to my arrival, the homeowner attempted to diy this existing 10 year old heater. If I would of spoke with him before this work commenced, I would of swayed the point of interest to replace before repair, always.
Heater sits on the 2nd floor of this structure, the water heater has been subjected to high water pressure for a period of time that causes metal fatigue. If this heater was in a basement unfinished, I STILL would represent the customer's best interest and tell them to replace, get that warranty as part of the plumber's task at hand. I personally will not guarantee a full rework of an electric water heater from leaking/malfunction/parts because the quality of repair parts, electrical included seem to have went down in the past two decades.
When the customer couldn't get the heater to perform after the repair parts were installed, an electrician was called out to determine if the circuit breaker was bad/defective. Indeed it was, and a new 30amp double breaker was installed mentioning on the ticket that the wires were loose in the lugs connecting to the existing breaker.
The new breaker did not solve any problems.
This is where I the plumber gets involved, not even wanting to work with the old heater because it didn't have OEM parts and it was 10 years old.
I installed a new water heater, to code. Wired it back like it would be installed, black to black, white to red, bare to ground.
Before I left, it was noticeable that it wasn't heating up in the 30 minutes after it was turned on like it should. It tempered the water but wasn't significant.
So, I took my simple tester, went back to that water heater, removed the cover on the junction box at top and did a test, confirmed I had 240 volts at the pigtails.
Knowing I'm dealing with a cold tank, and that the upper element fires first until temp setting is satisfied (120degrees) that top thermostat acts as a brain to the lower thermostat, sending juice to the lower element once and only after the top half of the water heater has ready to use hot water. That is a cold tank scenario only, and once it completes its first cycle the lower element is the element that is used for the majority of water heating, the top only for maintenance from thereon.
Took my tester, tested the two wires leading to the upper element, once again I get 240volts.
At this point with a brand new water heater, I've confirmed that my connections are 100% up top at the junction box and the heater is in the mode to heat that water at the top half until it meets my 120 degree thermostat setting.
Always, always the high temperature limit switches are tested to make sure they are not popped/tripped upon install to make sure that nothing upon transportation of the heater across the states caused an issue. Same goes with checking the thermostat settings. All plumbers should check this on new installs.
Customer calls me 4 hours later after installation, still no hot water. He took the upper thermostat cover panel off, insulation is warm, wires warm, he can tell that upper thermostat has electricity running to it. Still nothing more than luke warm water.
This water heater has 4500 watt elements, that's the reason for the 30amp/10-2 minimum requirement. Customer confirmed a 30amp breaker came out, new one went in.
I went through a list of tests to make sure my water lines are not crossed. Negative.
I personally cannot touch the internals of this new water heater as it is reserved for the authorized rep for the product maker, comes at no cost to the consumer for the first year on parts and labor. After the first year it is parts/tank only till the maturity of 6 years.
I've never installed an electric water heater that didn't work from the go, ever.
The symptoms of this situation mimic the identical problems from 5 days prior.
On my level, this customer was due for a new electric water heater but I'm miffed that it's not creating hot water, and definitely they are not happy either after spending quite a bit of money.
Since it comes from a plumber's perspective that electric water heaters are very simple to install, *2 water lines, 3 wires* I installed this heater like I have the last 600 electric water heaters I've installed.
I don't have any electrical testing instrument that measures the amount of current travelling to the heater, nor do I have anything that tells me the amount at the thermostats.
I'm comfortable with this "lack of" knowledge because I'm not an electrician, I'm strictly a pipe and fittings plumber and when I get into troubleshooting these water heaters, older ones I'm usually not getting paid. That buck stopped years ago.
Customer is contacting the same electrician that replaced the breaker to see what their thoughts are.
My question is this:
Does the explanation of the situation above lead any of you experts to finger pointing a particular spot in this system that may be the culprit? I'm not going to play electrician and fix this myself; the authorized rep or the electrician is going to get to the root of the problem and solve it.
This customer put a ton of effort into this situation, and we're trying to find out if something back at the panel is to blame, like a second breaker got damaged when the homeowner hooked up the heater after using retrofit parts (upper/lower tstats, elements) and I do know that the ones used in replacement of the elements were lower wattage, 3500 instead of 4500 watts.
Would appreciate any advice on this matter as I cannot see a brand new electric water heater malfunctioning like this. Connections are 100% tight at the junction box, confirmation of current making it to the upper element.
Customer called, having issues with a 10 year old water heater with new elements, new upper/lower thermostats, heater still isn't heating water.
I explain like I would all 10 year heaters and state that a "new" water heater is the best investment. Embeds the warranty of product/guarantee of product reliability because the cost is no different to rebuild or replace.
When you factor the time for a plumber to fetch OEM parts for the heater, not anything retrofit in regards to upper/lower thermostats, replacement elements.
I learned from my mistakes years ago and the parts that come out are the parts that go in, no exception on water heaters.
Was very thorough upon arriving, found non related issues that brings me to posting this topic. A defective thermal expansion tank and high water pressure doesn't cause 'no hot water' calls. But I found it, addressed part of that equation and installed a new water heater as their best financial interest in this matter, no matter what the current situation is as we speak.
The efficiency of water heaters dwindle the longer they are in operation, including sediment buildup, new government regs that require heavier insulation.
Onto the problem,
I installed this new water heater, it has:
30 amp breaker - Couldn't figure out the name on this breaker panel.
10-2 wire leading from the panel to the heater.
Structure is 10 years old, old as the water heater, old as the wiring.
5 days prior to my arrival, the homeowner attempted to diy this existing 10 year old heater. If I would of spoke with him before this work commenced, I would of swayed the point of interest to replace before repair, always.
Heater sits on the 2nd floor of this structure, the water heater has been subjected to high water pressure for a period of time that causes metal fatigue. If this heater was in a basement unfinished, I STILL would represent the customer's best interest and tell them to replace, get that warranty as part of the plumber's task at hand. I personally will not guarantee a full rework of an electric water heater from leaking/malfunction/parts because the quality of repair parts, electrical included seem to have went down in the past two decades.
When the customer couldn't get the heater to perform after the repair parts were installed, an electrician was called out to determine if the circuit breaker was bad/defective. Indeed it was, and a new 30amp double breaker was installed mentioning on the ticket that the wires were loose in the lugs connecting to the existing breaker.
The new breaker did not solve any problems.
This is where I the plumber gets involved, not even wanting to work with the old heater because it didn't have OEM parts and it was 10 years old.
I installed a new water heater, to code. Wired it back like it would be installed, black to black, white to red, bare to ground.
Before I left, it was noticeable that it wasn't heating up in the 30 minutes after it was turned on like it should. It tempered the water but wasn't significant.
So, I took my simple tester, went back to that water heater, removed the cover on the junction box at top and did a test, confirmed I had 240 volts at the pigtails.
Knowing I'm dealing with a cold tank, and that the upper element fires first until temp setting is satisfied (120degrees) that top thermostat acts as a brain to the lower thermostat, sending juice to the lower element once and only after the top half of the water heater has ready to use hot water. That is a cold tank scenario only, and once it completes its first cycle the lower element is the element that is used for the majority of water heating, the top only for maintenance from thereon.
Took my tester, tested the two wires leading to the upper element, once again I get 240volts.
At this point with a brand new water heater, I've confirmed that my connections are 100% up top at the junction box and the heater is in the mode to heat that water at the top half until it meets my 120 degree thermostat setting.
Always, always the high temperature limit switches are tested to make sure they are not popped/tripped upon install to make sure that nothing upon transportation of the heater across the states caused an issue. Same goes with checking the thermostat settings. All plumbers should check this on new installs.
Customer calls me 4 hours later after installation, still no hot water. He took the upper thermostat cover panel off, insulation is warm, wires warm, he can tell that upper thermostat has electricity running to it. Still nothing more than luke warm water.
This water heater has 4500 watt elements, that's the reason for the 30amp/10-2 minimum requirement. Customer confirmed a 30amp breaker came out, new one went in.
I went through a list of tests to make sure my water lines are not crossed. Negative.
I personally cannot touch the internals of this new water heater as it is reserved for the authorized rep for the product maker, comes at no cost to the consumer for the first year on parts and labor. After the first year it is parts/tank only till the maturity of 6 years.
I've never installed an electric water heater that didn't work from the go, ever.
The symptoms of this situation mimic the identical problems from 5 days prior.
On my level, this customer was due for a new electric water heater but I'm miffed that it's not creating hot water, and definitely they are not happy either after spending quite a bit of money.
Since it comes from a plumber's perspective that electric water heaters are very simple to install, *2 water lines, 3 wires* I installed this heater like I have the last 600 electric water heaters I've installed.
I don't have any electrical testing instrument that measures the amount of current travelling to the heater, nor do I have anything that tells me the amount at the thermostats.
I'm comfortable with this "lack of" knowledge because I'm not an electrician, I'm strictly a pipe and fittings plumber and when I get into troubleshooting these water heaters, older ones I'm usually not getting paid. That buck stopped years ago.
Customer is contacting the same electrician that replaced the breaker to see what their thoughts are.
My question is this:
Does the explanation of the situation above lead any of you experts to finger pointing a particular spot in this system that may be the culprit? I'm not going to play electrician and fix this myself; the authorized rep or the electrician is going to get to the root of the problem and solve it.
This customer put a ton of effort into this situation, and we're trying to find out if something back at the panel is to blame, like a second breaker got damaged when the homeowner hooked up the heater after using retrofit parts (upper/lower tstats, elements) and I do know that the ones used in replacement of the elements were lower wattage, 3500 instead of 4500 watts.
Would appreciate any advice on this matter as I cannot see a brand new electric water heater malfunctioning like this. Connections are 100% tight at the junction box, confirmation of current making it to the upper element.