Help with picking Fleck system

[PeteTerry]

Hi, Looking to replace my existing Culligan water softener system. It is a Mark 100 aqua sensor, at least 15 yrs old I estimate. Giving me problems with using too much salt, not getting consistent hardness levels (usually 0 but sometimes very hard), etc.

Want to replace with new Fleck valve setup but need help picking which one. So many different choices - 5600, 5800, 5810, mechanical vs. SXT vs XTR2, etc.

Here are details:
- Family of 5, 2 adults/3 kids under 12
- 2700 sq ft house, 2 full bath, 1 half bath
- Municipal water
- Water hardness is 17 gpg (via Hach 5b)
- According to water bill we use 8-11 CCF per month (6000-8200 gallons) in non-summer months
- I don't know iron content of water but we have never had rust stains. Local water report has iron content at <10 ug/L
- 3/4" copper piping after water meter inside house, and into and out of existing softener
- 4 GPM flow rate at master bathtub
- Note that we have a separate Culligan RO filtration system for drinking water (kitchen sink and fridge)

Based on the above can you recommend a Fleck system that is properly sized for us (regen 1x a week), uses salt modestly and based on actual water usage, and where desired hardless level can be set (e.g. 1 or 2 GPG instead of 0 which our current softener does).

Also recommended online dealers would be helpful (via PM).

thanks!

 

[PeteTerry]

Sorry to clarify my 17 GPG hardness number is when I tested the water a year ago. My current test shows 12 GPG (after I bypass softener and let water run). I'm not sure if the hardness changed over time or seasonally, or the Hach test chemicals degrade over time.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Reach4]

Seasonal changes can occur as the city switches the mix of river or well water. With city water, the iron will have settled out by the time it gets to you.

At 17 grains, you would probably want a softener with 2.5 cuft of 10% crosslinked resin.

All of the controllers you mention can regenerate based on usage. The key word is "demand".

For the 1 or 2 grain hardness, you could have a mixer, or could use an external 3-valve bypass. Then crack the middle valve open a bit. Instead of mixing, you could set the softener to use only 4 pounds of salt per cubic ft for each regen. That will cause some hardness leakage and will save salt usage significantly. It will not be as consistent as mixing soft and hard.

 

[PeteTerry]

Thanks, here is my local water report if helpful: https://www.mysuezwater.com/sites/default/files/NYCCRSupplement2017.pdf (I am closest to the "Deforest" reservoir)

Regarding the 1-2 grain hardness setting, it seems more trouble than its worth to mix hard/soft water or dial down the salt usage and hope for leakage. Will just stick to 0 and keep things simple.

Looking at 5800SXT currently.

 

[Ryan Symons]

I would caution against buying a softener online if that's what you are thinking. The 5800 is supposed to be kept as a dealer only control valve so if you get it elsewhere I would question their morals. Besides that you never really know what you are going to get...cheap tanks, cheap mineral, counterfeit control valve, ect.

 

[PeteTerry]

Totally agree, my plan would be to buy from a reputable dealer so I know the rest of the system is good quality, but aren't there online dealers?

 

[Bannerman]

.

aren't there online dealers?

Both Fleck and Clack have changed their policies to only sell through qualified brick and mortar dealers who properly support what they sell. In addition to the reasons already stated above, too many online dealers have no practical experience in water conditioning and have improperly referred their clients to Fleck and Clack to obtain setup advice.

The Fleck 5600 is a several decades old design that has limitations. They continue to be found online as that has been a long-standing practice. The other Fleck control valves you mention, are all newer models which have higher capabilities and features.

The salt setting directly influences the usable capacity and salt efficiency of whatever softener you obtain.

For instance, a 2 cuft unit marketed as 64K grains total capacity, if regenerated with an efficient 16 lbs salt (8 lbs per cuft of resin) per regeneration cycle, will provide 48K (24K per cuft) grains usable capacity, thereby resulting in a maximum salt efficiency of 3,000 grains per lb of salt. The same 2 cuft unit using 12 lbs salt (6 lbs/cuft) will provide 40K usable grains capacity, resulting in a slightly higher maximum salt efficiency of 3,333 grains per lb. These are the two most recommended salt efficiency settings as they also provide reasonable quality soft water (less hardness leakage). If the salt setting and capacity is further reduced, the salt efficiency will increase but will eventually result in higher hardness leakage through the softener and therefore, lower quality soft water. In addition, more frequent regen cycles will result in higher water usage for regeneration.

When sizing a softener, be less concerned with total capacity but consider the usable capacity while using an efficient salt setting.

 

[ditttohead]

If you know how to search through the legal files, you will notice many of the online water companies also have sites for selling candles, fidget spinners, hair extensions, and whatever other junk they can find to try to supplement their online store. Many are nothing more than a UPS store, or some guy sitting in his moms basement running a dozen sites selling whatever trendy new item they think they can move... and as stated above, putting a high quality valve on top of a pile of junk... add to that the fact that most of the companies have no clue as to how to program, set up, install, service or maintain the equipment they sell, their only goal is to be $1 cheaper than the next online reseller.

 

[PeteTerry]

thanks for that info, can you shoot me some recommended dealers?

 

[JAMES ROSE]

Above Bannerman states ....


The Fleck 5600 is a several decades old design that has limitations. They continue to be found online as that has been a long-standing practice. The other Fleck control valves you mention, are all newer models which have higher capabilities and features.

Could someone explain what new features or capabilities the the new valves now on the market like the 5800 SXT offer that the older 5600SXT does not. For a typical residential application, do these differences matter?

 

[Reach4]

Above Bannerman states ....

Could someone explain what new features or capabilities the the new valves now on the market like the 5800 SXT offer that the older 5600SXT does not. For a typical residential application, do these differences matter?

One difference is that the 58xx units use softened water for brine refill. That would let the time between brine tank cleanings be a little more. I don't know how to quantify that. Maybe it would be the difference between every 12 years instead of 10 for some, and 4 years instead of 3 for others.

I like the way the 5600SXT handles power glitches better. It just sits there quietly. Regenerations are quieter with the 5600SXT.

The flows on the 5800 are be better at high flow rates. The backwash in filter applications is limited to about 7 gpm on the 5600SXT. Some media need more. That is not a limitation for softening, because softening backwash is much lower. The 5800 is 3/4, 5810 is 1 inch internal, and 5812 is 1.25 inch internal,

 

[Bannerman]

The 5800SXT is probably the closest comparable control valve to the 5600SXT except for flow rate.

As the 5600 backwash has a limit of 7 GPM, the manufacturer's literature indicates that valve is appropriate for up to 12" diameter softener tanks and 10" filter applications, although some will continue to use that valve with slightly larger tanks. The 5800 can handle up to 17 GPM backwash, 21 GPM service flow & 27 GPM peak flow and so is rated for tanks up to 16" diameter.

Although the 5600 is easily serviced, the 5800 is easier yet with few tools necessary.

Unlike the 5600, the 5800 has 3 digital controller options including SXT, LXT, and XTR2.

The SXT is most basic whereas the LXT and XTR2 controllers have an ability to build an algorithm of usage history for each day of the week for the prior 4 weeks. The controller can initiate regeneration if remaining capacity is too low the night before a heavy water consumption day is to occur, or it may further delay regeneration if the following day has a history of light water use.

Whether or not these features and capabilities will be beneficial to you will depend on your water treatment requirements, water usage, and your personal requirements and desires.

 

[Reach4]

The SXT is most basic whereas the LXT and XTR2 controllers have an ability to build an algorithm of usage history for each day of the week for the prior 4 weeks.

5810SXT and 5812SXT can build a usage history too (RS=cr). I currently opt for the fixed, but I could see the experience history method has its advantages.

LXT has less programmability, and does let you adjust cycle length. XTR2 has more programmability (including the ability to pass its flow information to an injection pump or a computer, and uses a menuing setup rather than brief cryptic settings. The initially cryptic settings method has the advantage that you can more briefly convey/post setting info.

 

[Bannerman]

58xxSXT can build a usage history too (RS=cr).

With the SXT controller, Reserve Selection (RS) may be programmed as either a specific fixed Reserve Capacity (RC) amount or as a Safety Factor (SF) which is a percentage of total capacity. These set values remain constant regardless of usage.

The LXT and XTR2 controllers have an ability to automatically calculate and vary the reserve anticipated for each specific day-of-the-week based on daily water usage history. For example, if laundry washing is usually performed on Monday and so more than average water is used on that day, the controller will recognize that pattern over 4-weeks so as to ensure there is adequate capacity remaining for that heavy water use day. If there is inadequate capacity remaining prior to Monday, regeneration will then be performed whereas if an identical amount of reserve capacity remains adequate before a lighter use day, regeneration may then be further delayed, thereby wasting less regenerated capacity whenever possible.

While variable reserve may not be the only benefit to an LXT or XTR2, it could be a feature of interest to anyone considering a 5600SXT to further investigate and consider the features and benefits of a more modern valve and controller model.

 

[Reach4]

From 5810SXT manual, which does have variable reserve as a choice.

 

[Bannerman]

From 5810SXT manual,

Thank you for pointing this out.

As James Rose asked about feature and capability differences between the 5600SXT and 5800SXT models specifically, the information I provided was in reference to those two models only. Since the 5800SXT manual does not specify a variable reserve option but as the feature is offered in the 5800LXT and 5800XTR2, I pointed that out as something that maybe worthwhile for consideration. Because the LXT controller seems to be specific for the 5800 valve only, perhaps Fleck has decided to add a variable reserve capability to the SXT controllers for the 5810 and 5812 models instead of producing another non-touchscreen digital controller for those two valves.

Unless there is reason to suggest another valve model from those being considered, I attempt to limit my comments to the specific models being discussed. That said, I notice my local wholesale supplier lists all 58xxSXT softener valves lower in price than the 5600SXT softener valve, with the 5810SXT slightly lower in cost than a 5800SXT. Maybe James Rose can then obtain a 5810SXT system for less cost than a 5800SXT system while still gaining a variable reserve capability.

 

[Reach4]

I had not noticed that the 5800SXT lacked that option. The 7000 had it, or at least the later ones did. I will amend my post.

I started with that setting on my 5810SXT, but got impatient and went to a fixed number of gallons.

 

[PeteTerry]

Bumping my original post. I just installed a new 5800sxt with 2 cu ft of 10% resin. Rest of the facts are in my original post. Can someone help me with the right settings to start with? I'll confirm w/ the dealer I purchased from on Monday, but I'd like to be in the right ballpark this weekend.

thanks

 

[Reach4]

If this does not match available choices let us know.

System info (not programmed)
salt lb/cuft : 7.125 ; A choice ( efficiency vs capacity)
BLFC : 0.25 ; Brine Refill rate GPM ***CHECK IT****
cubic ft resin : 2 ; Same as (nominal grains/32,000)
Raw hardness : 17 ; including iron etc
Estimated gal/day ; 268 ; 60 gal per person prediction (auto-tunes)
Est days/regen ; 8.76 ; presuming days each use estimated
Fleck 5800SXT Settings:
DF = Gal ; Units
VT = 5810 ; Valve type
RF = dF2b ; Downflow, Double Backwash
CT = Fd ; Meter Delayed regen trigger
C = 44.6 ; capacity in 1000 grains
H = 19 ; Hardness grains after comp factor (adjust with test)
RS = rc ; rc says use gallons vs percent
RC = 300 ; Reserve capacity gallons
DO = 30 ; Day Override (typ 30 if no iron/Mn)
RT = 2:00 ; Regen time (default 2 AM)
B1 = 5 ; Backwash 1 (minutes) [3...10]
Bd = 60 ; Brine draw minutes (ok for #1 or #0 injector)
B2 = 4 ; Backwash 2 (minutes)[3...10]
RR = 6 ; Rapid Rinse minutes
BF = 19 ; Brine fill minutes
FM = t1.2 (usual) ; t1.2 is default flow meter
RE = OFF ; Relay
VR = OFF ; ?

==================================
Alternative C and BF pairs:
lb/cuft ; C= ; BF=
5.250 ; 37.2 ; 14 (low salt use, more leakage)
5.625 ; 38.6 ; 15
6.000 ; 40.0 ; 16
6.375 ; 41.5 ; 17 (good choice)
6.750 ; 43.1 ; 18 (good choice)
7.125 ; 44.6 ; 19 (used in above numbers)
7.500 ; 46.1 ; 20 (good choice)
7.875 ; 47.5 ; 21 (good choice)
8.250 ; 48.9 ; 22
8.625 ; 50.2 ; 23 (higher salt used. Softer)

 

[PeteTerry]

I have a 5800 not a 5810. Does that result in different settings?