General Deep Well Queries

[Maven]

Hello,

Been lurking on the forum for a while just reading as many posts about deep wells as possible as I've recently acquired land with a well that didn't quite work when I powered it up for the first time. Please excuse the long post..

The pump had not been powered on in about a decade. The well powered on and was producing water, but one of two things happened: a) perhaps I had the gate valve closed too much (manual said 1/3 open?) and it activated the pressure switch, which momentarily turned power off to the pump motor, when it reapplied power it stopped producing water or b) The motor rotor locked and the generator changed tone enough to give me the impression that something drastic had changed like the pressure switch activating... I Measured current down to the pump and it was within spec.

Amazingly I pulled up for the 420 feet of drop pipe to find what I sort of expected - a broken coupling between the motor and the pump.

1. Any ideas what would cause this? backspinning of the pump due to bad check valves? There were 3 check valves in the drop pipe - all painted cast steel(not desirable in my opinion)...
2. Is my best bet to just replace the pump and motor now even though the motor seems ok? The price on a Red Lion motor/pump isn't terrible I guess.
3. Is stainless or brass check valves preferred on PVC drop line?
4. There was no safety rope or stainless cable installed on this well - should I be reinstalling with a strainless steel cable as a safety? Can it be used to lower the pump and sections of drop pipe back into the well or should this be done with the same "pipe elevator" method used to remove the drop pipe?
5. Can I use zip ties instead of tape to secure the power wire to the sections of drop pipe?? I was not comfortable with how easily the tape came off in the sections that were submersed in water.

Total well depth: 450 feet
Pump level: 420 feet
Water Level: Somewhere between 320 and 350 feet
As installed 1.5 HP franklin electric motor (3 wire) w/ Sta-Rite pump
PVC 1.25 schedule 120 drop pipe w/ stainless couplers

Many Thanks in advance for any replies!

-Maven

 

[Craigpump]

Broken or split coupling? Was it brass, steel or PVC.

I wouldn't use a Red Lion anything, especially with a 420' setting. Buy a real pump like Grundfos or Gould's for a few dollars more. New StaRites are junk. I'd put in new wire also.

Never, ever use a "safety rope" or cable in a well, if it falls, rots or breaks, it can stick the pump in the well like a Chinese finger. If you think you need a rope or cable, you should spend your money on better pipe, but you already have good pipe.

Never use wire ties, they don't hold the weight of the wire, the wire will sag and can pull apart at the top hole splices. Use good quality electrical tape. We use 3M with no issues.

I don't know how you pulled it, but put in the same way, or to be safe, especially with that low static, call in a guy with a hoist truck. There are several pump companies in San Diego county.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Valveman]

A broken or stripped motor coupling or shaft can be caused by the motor spinning backwards when the pump starts. I doubt this because you had three check valves. It can also be caused by long term cycling on and off, which is more likely the cause.

I agree with Craigpump on the Goulds or Grundfos, no safety rope, and using electric tape instead of zip ties. I would also use only one check valve at the pump and no other check valve in the system. Then you either need a much larger tank to reduce the cycling or a Cycle Stop Valve would be even better if applicable. Need to check the pump model number and depth to water to make sure the CSV will work with that system.

 

[Maven]

Craigpump – to clarify it was the coupling between the electric motor and the water pump that broke (on the drive shafts)… it appears to be some sort of cast metal.. aluminum? Pot metal? It isn’t rusty so I assume it isn’t mild steel. It has some weight to it so I’m not ruling out that it could be some sort of stainless steel.

OK good advice on the use of tape vs zip tie – noted I will get the good 3M tape.

Valveman – Define ‘long term cycling’ – Do you think the previous owner had been running the pump for long periods of time? Or should I not have cycled it for as long as I have when I first fired it up? It couldn’t have been more than 60 seconds until trouble struck… I assumed this was a normal cycle time (been a while since I’ve been in a place with a water well but I thought they cycled for a minute or two or three at a time).

I see a whole separate thread on the check valve issue so I’ll not try to stir up trouble here but needless to say – I’m absolutely confused on whether I should add zero checkvalves or add a checkvalve after the pump and one every 100 feet! Backspin vs water hammering… very confusing stuff here…

So… no safety rope, possibly just 1 checkvalve, good tape… put it back in the way I took it out and spring for a more expensive pump.

I’m honestly a little surprised to hear red lion is garbage – when I saw the link on franklin electric’s website I thought.. well if they are part of their portfolio .. franklin electric wouldn’t muddy their name with a bad pump.. but… I guess so!

 

[Reach4]

I see a whole separate thread on the check valve issue so I’ll not try to stir up trouble here but needless to say – I’m absolutely confused on whether I should add zero checkvalves or add a checkvalve after the pump and one every 100 feet!

You missed adding one right above the pump, and under water, and no others.

 

[Craigpump]

Putting multiple check valves in the drop pipe is an old wives tale. The thought is that the pump won't have to work as hard to get the water moving. Pumps are designed to lift water, if the pump is sized correctly it will lift the water with no problem.

 

[LLigetfa]

Backspin vs water hammering… very confusing stuff here…

If all the checkvalves below the water level have failed catastrophically and the only one holding is more than about 40 feet above the water level, then the water can drop, just like mercury does in a barometer. This dropping spins the motor backwards. If you bounce the switch too soon, the sudden change in direction along with the heavy load of a pump moving more water than it would otherwise, can break the coupling.

 

[Valveman]

I’m honestly a little surprised to hear red lion is garbage – when I saw the link on franklin electric’s website I thought.. well if they are part of their portfolio .. franklin electric wouldn’t muddy their name with a bad pump.. but… I guess so!

That is exactly what Franklin does. They have been putting less quality into their pumps a little at a time over many years. The goal is not to make a pump that will last 30 years. The goal is to make a pump that will last just past the warranty period, can't be repaired, so must be replaced. While the general public is looking for the best quality at an affordable price, pump manufacturers are driven almost exclusively by "cash flow".

 

[Craigpump]

It's really easy, simply put a second check valve at the pump. We use Grundfos pumps, so use a 1"X1" stainless pump check. On a Goulds, you'd use a 1.25"X1" stainless pump check.

If the water is running back through the pump, that vacuum will suck in air, which will be readily noticeable at the faucets if you have a diaphram or bladder type tank.

 

[LLigetfa]

If the water is running back through the pump, that vacuum will suck in air

Only if there is a leak in the pipe.

 

[ThirdGenPump]

Only if there is a leak in the pipe.

It will suck in air with our without a leak in the pipe. His static is hundreds of feet down. You can't hold more than 32ft of water on vacuum. Air will find a way.

 

[Maven]

*her, actually.

Seems like the check valve layout and quantity is very controversial.. I looked through the Goulds manual and they do seem to indicate check valves on the drop pipe are desired.. but I don't know if they really will do much good. I'm leaning towards a Goulds pump (the 10GS15412C 1.5HP 3 Wire) with a check valve above the pump and one near water level.

The Goulds manual only mentions a safety cable for poly pipe so I guess I'll take the advice of everyone and leave the cable out even though that give me a bit of panic as 420 feet is just an insane length of pipe to hang off the well head without a safety!

I know the PVC schedule 120 I have is very robust and rated well for the PSI I'll be seeing.. but I gotta say after pulling up those 20 foot sections and seeing all the threaded joints a notion of poly pipe certainly is attractive... but the math on the poly pipe doesn't seem to work out for this depth the way I see it.

Has anyone tried AquaScience pumps? Seems like they use the pentair motor.. which I'm going on a limb and saying is possibly a good motor...

It will suck in air with our without a leak in the pipe. His static is hundreds of feet down. You can't hold more than 32ft of water on vacuum. Air will find a way.

 

[Valveman]

That second check valve will cause you problems, no matter what Goulds says. Goulds is the manufacturer. They have never installed a pump ever. Multiple check valves work on paper only. This is from someone who has removed thousands of extra check valves from peoples systems to stop the water hammer.

Aqua Science doesn't make pumps, they sell several brands. And if you think 420' is deep to not have a safety rope, think about having 400' of that safety rope fall down the well and like Craigpump says turn into a Chinese finger trap and your pump will NEVER come out of the well.

 

[Maven]

So who is making the pumps with the branding "AquaScience"
http://www.aquascience.net/aqua-sci...2hp-230v-submersible-pump-kit-and-control-box

 

[Valveman]

Its called "private labeling". I found where that pump is made in Canada, so I am guessing it is a Hallmark or Monarch. There are so many new brands of pumps on the market that it is hard to keep up. And most of them will put your name on them if you order enough up front.

 

[Valveman]

Looks a lot like one of these but the number of stages on the pumps are different.
http://littlegiant.com/products/water-systems/4-inch-submersible-well-pumps/12-gpm/

 

[Maven]

Yeah I figured they were having it made by some outfit .. I'm assuming the "little giant" stuff is not as confidence inspiring as the Goulds or Grundfos?

 

[Valveman]

Yeah I figured they were having it made by some outfit .. I'm assuming the "little giant" stuff is not as confidence inspiring as the Goulds or Grundfos?

With a regular Pentek motor, it is probably as good as any of them. Wouldn't surprise me if they were made in the same factory.

 

[Craigpump]

I don't trust anything made by Pentair.

 

[Valveman]

I don't trust anything made by Pentair.

Isn't that exactly the same motor as the Goulds Centripro?