Troubleshooting Dead Outlets in Detached Workshop

[LarryLeveen]

FWIW, I don't think that your subpanel would pass a current inspection...I don't remember the numbers, but there must be clearance on both sides, above, and in front of the panel...sticking a shelf over it, certainly isn't to code, either. The metal cover is to help prevent a spark from igniting something and for safety!

Installing a waterproof outlet cover is a simple job...take the existing cover off, screw the new one on. There are lots of different designs.

Ha! Yeah, I have no intention of leaving the subpanel uncovered like that. I welcome suggestions.

Regarding the outlet cover, I have seen a few videos that mentioned current code requirements for them. I think I know what to look for, though I just didn't know what the install is like. I'm guessing it's easier than the stuff I've been doing already!

One interesting question that remains is whether the GFCI receptacle was in fact bad. The one pictured is one I got and installed just to see if that was the cause of the other indoor receptacles not having power. That said, I doubt either are rated for outdoor use (something I learned was "a thing" after installing them, along with the code requirements for a cover). I think I'll do the right thing and get the real deal outdoor use GFCI and move those other GFCIs indoor to replace other crappy (stab-in-only) outlets in the workshop. I've also learned that there are GFCIs for 15 vs. 20 amp service, so I need to figure out exactly what the heck receptacle is needed. Any advice is appreciated. Thanks!

 

[Jadnashua]

Code allows you to use either a 15A or 20A receptacle on a 20A circuit, but you must only use a 15A one when the breaker or fuse is rated at 15A. A 20A receptacle will accept either a standard, two parallel prong plug, or one where one of the power leads it horizontal and the other is vertical. So, if you have a 20A device, it cannot be inserted into a 15A receptacle, but any can be installed into a 20A one.

Many GFCI can be used outside, but they do need an approved cover. Some people have indicated they had issues when you daisy chain multiple GFCI devices in one circuit. It should work, but if one trips, then it may cause all of them to trip, which could be an inconvenience.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Reach4]

For the weatherproof cover for outside, that should be on a weatherproof box. Then the gaskets can seal out the rain.

 

[LarryLeveen]

Hmmm.... the subpanel has four 20A circuits, so it looks like I could use either a 15 or 20A GFCI. Is it odd that the shop is served on the MAIN panel by two 50A breakers, but that the sub-panel only has four 20A breakers? One is not required to "take up" all of the amperage served to the subpanel?

Also, does the GFCI receptacle itself need to be rated water resistant, or will the box take care of that? Or is a "belt-and-suspenders" approach where they are both water resistant best?

 

[Jadnashua]

If they used 20A breakers, the wiring should be at least 12g out of that subpanel.

Many GFCI devices may be 15A, but 20A pass-through. A 20A one will work fine for either 15 or 20A receptacles on a 20A circuit. And, a 15A one, with a 20A pass-through would also work on either a 15 or 20A circuit.

It's fairly common to have your breakers add up to more than the one feeding them...the idea is that you rarely are loading all of them to their max. IF you do, you need a bigger supply.

As to exterior rated...I'm not sure...it should say on the box or the installation instructions. I'm pretty sure, if used in an exterior rated box with an appropriate cover, it should be okay...but, it's best to check.

 

[LarryLeveen]

If they used 20A breakers, the wiring should be at least 12g out of that subpanel.

Many GFCI devices may be 15A, but 20A pass-through. A 20A one will work fine for either 15 or 20A receptacles on a 20A circuit. And, a 15A one, with a 20A pass-through would also work on either a 15 or 20A circuit.

It's fairly common to have your breakers add up to more than the one feeding them...the idea is that you rarely are loading all of them to their max. IF you do, you need a bigger supply.

As to exterior rated...I'm not sure...it should say on the box or the installation instructions. I'm pretty sure, if used in an exterior rated box with an appropriate cover, it should be okay...but, it's best to check.

Found a good deal on a combo kit of a WR/TR 20A GFCI with weather proof extra duty in-use cover at Home Despot: Model # MG420C-20A

 

[Jadnashua]

If your wires and CB are both rated for 20A, that will work...12G wiring is required to use 20A devices. Code allows 15A receptacles on 20A circuits, but you can't use 20A devices on 15A circuits. There may be some confusion, because some receptacles may be a 15A type, but have 20A pass-through capability, and can thus be used on a 20A circuit since because of the blade configuration, you can't plug a 20A device in, it works and isn't overloaded. But, the combination of loads on that circuit could be up to 20A because of the pass-through capability and not overload things.

 

[LarryLeveen]

If your wires and CB are both rated for 20A, that will work...12G wiring is required to use 20A devices. Code allows 15A receptacles on 20A circuits, but you can't use 20A devices on 15A circuits. There may be some confusion, because some receptacles may be a 15A type, but have 20A pass-through capability, and can thus be used on a 20A circuit since because of the blade configuration, you can't plug a 20A device in, it works and isn't overloaded. But, the combination of loads on that circuit could be up to 20A because of the pass-through capability and not overload things.

What should I do about the subpanel? Are covers generally available for them?

 

[Jadnashua]

I don't know for sure, but I'd be surprised if you can buy just that part. You might get lucky if you call around to some electricians that might have one they took out, but those generally get trashed, not stored. I don't have a good solution. Hopefully, someone else will. You might get lucky if you call the panel's manufacturer and explain the issue.

 

[LarryLeveen]

I don't know for sure, but I'd be surprised if you can buy just that part. You might get lucky if you call around to some electricians that might have one they took out, but those generally get trashed, not stored. I don't have a good solution. Hopefully, someone else will. You might get lucky if you call the panel's manufacturer and explain the issue.

Roger that. It seems that I could just make a metal cover with screw holes. I'm not really handy with sheet metal, but I could probably hack(saw) it.

I'm not under the illusion that it would be up to code, but it beats being able to run into live wires with a broom handle or something else being moved around the shop :-/

 

[Highlander]

Take a look for a label with a model number to be sure, but from here looks like a Square-D Homeline 6-12 flush panel. Page 74 on this PDF shows part numbers for covers for flush and surface models, the panel itself is at page 59: http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/1937128.pdf . Not sure where you'd buy that cover alone, but looks like the whole pan, innards and cover (without breakers) usually goes for $20-$30, which may be the simplest option and gives you a bunch of spare parts.

 

[LarryLeveen]

Take a look for a label with a model number to be sure, but from here looks like a Square-D Homeline 6-12 flush panel. Page 74 on this PDF shows part numbers for covers for flush and surface models, the panel itself is at page 59: http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/1937128.pdf . Not sure where you'd buy that cover alone, but looks like the whole pan, innards and cover (without breakers) usually goes for $20-$30, which may be the simplest option and gives you a bunch of spare parts.

Forgot to follow up on this. I tracked the right part down and bought it. Worth the $ to not hurt someone or have liability or the building burn down. Plus, we sold that house — and now have an entirely NEW ratnest of problems I'm posting about on these fine forums. Thanks for the help y'all!

 

[DavidDeBord]

Doh! I forgot to mention a few things (it was late):

- there is no sub-panel in the workshop.

- the multimeter did indeed show 120v between the hot and ground on the low voltage receptical.

- there are three external lights on the workshop -- one, controlled by a switch in the house, works. I can't tell if the other two work (motion sensor fixtures). One is situated near (but outside) the non-working outlet.

- there are mice in the walls of the workshop -- of course

- the GFCI outlet is within one foot of a oval junction box where the power lines come up through a pipe from the ground.

I'll pull the last good outlet and see if it has two wires or four and check their connections.

With no sub-panel in your Work shop, to receive that 50 Amp 220 circuit from Your Main Service panel,............... I'm thinking that Your Service in the work shop is literally 220 V., that some one split the "Hot Legs" so as to provide 120V to various circuits throughout Your Shop!

That Sir,... Is Flat out Dangerous, & could result in Harm to Property & Life,... In fact, it is Illegal.

Depending upon that strength of Your 2 Pole 50 Amp breaker in the Main Panel,... It may not even trip, if an appliance, or YOU, shorted a circuit.

 

[DavidDeBord]

Thanks. I agree that there is something really odd going on here, and I was just about done investigating due to the potential safety issues brought up here. One last idea -- behind the freezer! NOPE. Nothing there, but then... what's up with that dorky cabinet mounted on the wall near the three indoor switches (and also the external stuff pictured above)?
View attachment 40306

It was a struggle to get it off as it wasn't screwed into anything structural, but then:
View attachment 40307 View attachment 40308

Well, lookee here! And two popped breakers! Resetting them resulted in the dead outlets now working (and wired properly according to my outlet tester), and the GFCI now being able to be reset and tested (and the outlet tester saying it is wired right).

I had already learned that the outdoor GFCI needs a special cover (not just any cover) to comply with code. The current cover has a foam gasket which looked to me like a draft blocker (kinda janky at that), and the pipe from the ground has a cover, though it's gasket looks pretty shot from sun/weather. Is a proper cover an easy DIY install?

Wow, thanks guys for being so insistent that there must/should be a subpanel! I was right about to give up and call in an electrician to figure out what the heck was going on. Should I still have one come in? If so what should I ask them?

I have a new question, though: On investigating the various outlets, I have seen that on several of the receptacle boxes, the screw threads are stripped, so the screws cannot properly hold the receptacle in the box (one usually does so that the receptacle is tilted up or down). What is a good/decent fix short of replacing the box which seems like a pain in the butt?

Thanks again!!!

I posted my previous comments about the lack of a Sub-panel, without having read all of the posts,.... LOL! Sometimes I find that a well intended post,.... Comes back to haunt me. SMH

Your Outdoor Weather-proof GFI Cover w/gasket,, & LB Cover w/gasket, should be easily found, if not at a local hardware, then Lowes &/or Home-depot, as well as any Electrical Supply. And Yes Sir, replacing those items is DIY.

As far as the loose screws on your receptacles, a simple repair would to be to, >>>With The Power OFF<<<, remove the screws, & install a screw One Size larger, & then carefully tighten them down,... matter of fact, prior to tightening the receptacles down, wrap the receptacle terminals with electrical tape, so as to prohibit any "Shorts" while remounting the outlets.

As far as a cover fro that sub-panel,.... It can be made out of a thick gauge metal, that will withstand impact. It will have to be precisely cut out, so as to fit closely to the Breakers, & line up with the cover/panel mounting holes for the missing cover.

 

[DavidDeBord]

What are you talking about in general; the house should be equipped with earth fault and arc fault interrupters (GFCI and AFCI). GFCIs protect bathroom and outdoor outlet circuits, while AFCIs protect bedroom circuits. Ask your builder how to test these devices, or read about vertical template toggle system clamp before buyin` it. Do you understand a little about construction? These are circuits that run through the house and serve to ensure reliability and safety.
Refer to the technical information for power supplies and protection when the UPS input is connected through external switches that isolate the neutral in open position, or when the automatic backfeed isolation system is external to the equipment or connected to an IT power distribution system, appropriate tags must be affixed at the UPS input terminals and at all input circuit breakers

His System is "Grand-fathered",... Meaning that he is not required to bring his Home/Shop up to Current Code, unless it is a Blatant Hazard to life &/or Property.