Fleck 7000 / Clack Resin Tank Leak - Plumber Installation Problem or Defect

[Gary Slusser]

I don't know how or why but I didn't see the OP's posts #5 and #11 until now. The tank threads are split in a valley of the threads in two places 180* across from each other. It could be due to stress on the control caused by the bad plumbing or tightening the tank after it was installed. My guess would be the stress of the bad plumbing since rotating the tank to tighten it another 3/4 turn was done while the bad plumbing was stressing 'things'. Otherwise the control valve would have been rotated instead of the tank. But... the cracks don't go through the neck to the outside unless the crack is so narrow it can't be seen or, because the control valve is not screwed into the tank now, so screw it in use a magnifying glass to look for the crack.

What to do is a problem, the tank is under warranty but not covered if the valve was tightened too much, and... if it was the stress from the bad plumbing, the plumber won't make it right. So I suggest going to the seller (and remind them that they said to rotate the tank another 3/4 turn) and explain what happened and see what they say. They are the only one that could get a warranty replacement anyway. That assumes the plumber won't buy a new tank for his customer on the very likely chance he did cause the cracks. You could ask him for a new tank and you change out the resin and redo the plumbing instead of having him doing it.

Resin normally has a 50%+/- moisture content, even new in the bag, and if it dries out, that ruins the resin.

 

[kmack]

Thank Gary. Could someone with a Fleck 7000 also look at the underside and examine the four holes around the perimeter. On mine, three are trapezoid but the fourth (which is where the leak was occurring) is a trapezoid with a notch. It the one with the yellow stuff around it in the pictures. Is that normal or is the valve broken as well? See the attached pictures.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[kmack]

This is turning into the install from hell. Next time I need to hire someone from a water treatment company instead of a plumbing company that says they have experience installing softeners. So I looked closely at the threads of the Fleck control valve and there is a definitely crack in the threads of the valve. See attached pictures. So I am assuming I need a new tank and control valve at this point. Gary, are you sure the tank is also bad from the pictures? I think I can get the seller to warranty either the valve of tank but not both.

 

[ditttohead]

Call me tomorrow. I can probably get you warranty on the valve even though it was obviously over-tightened. If not, I have plenty of valve bodies laying around the warehouse, I am sure I could give you one.

And yes, buying stuff from people who don't ship their own product, and having it installed poorly will cause huge headaches. I have been able to break every valve on our test bench by over-tightening. Any company that would tell you to tighten an o-ring sealed part an extra 3/4 turn should not be in the business. The valve should be tightened snug only. O-rings seal on contact, not by flattening them out. sent you a pm.

And yes, Clack tank, it helps to actually handle the products on a daily basis to give good information.

 

[Gary Slusser]

Kmack, I was going to question if the valve threads were damaged because I had a question of something I saw in the pictures.... No I can not say the tank neck is cracked from the pictures I've seen, they are just a bit blurry from here but you say you can't see cracks on the outside of the neck. Also, this forum won't allow me to Zoom (in) the view like it used to.

Yes, in some cases rather than hiring a plumber hiring a water treatment guy or, a handyman is a better choice to install equipment.

You bought from a web site that is owned by a very large, all but 70 year old, stocking distributor that sells all types of water treatment equipment to local dealers AND has a huge inventory and only ships from that inventory. They also have a number of retail stores. They may or may not sell to other internet dealers but I have never heard that they do. IMO you probably were given bad advice by an employee for whatever reason but, and I am assuming here, that s/he told you to tighten the tank/valve because you called them about the leak, and they assumed it would stop the leak. And it cracked the tank neck and valve threads possibly but... IMO, and I'm not a lawyer and have never played one anywhere at any time, that is a concurrent cause of the problems. The plumber's stress causing (tilting the valve and it's threads) bad plumbing is what is called, proximate cause. In my non legal opinion that is where the responsibility falls and where I would go if I were you to make my softener as good as new. I would not accept a used valve body that required me to take all the parts off my valve and install them on the old valve body. I also would want a new tank and the place you bought from is where I would want to get it from.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proximate_cause (including concurrent cause). My experience with this is in a previous life as an insurance agent.

 

[kmack]

thanks Dary and ditto:

The internet retailer I bought it from (Affordable Water) is actually going to send me a new assembled control valve, which is nice because I do believe that the plumbing was a cause and the plumber likely over tightened the valve as well, hence making a warranty claim questionable. I am hoping that the tank and valve were not both damaged, but the more I look at the tank, the more I think the tank is fine.

They told me to tighten the tank after I sent them the pictures, so I think they thought the plumber was over cautious and did not tightened the valve enough because you could see a small slit between the white neck collar and the valve.

In any event, this time I will ensure the valve is tightened just enough for the o-ring to seal. The instructions sent with the unit (and used by the plumber) said hand tighten and then another 1/2 turn. If you think of hand tighten as "as tight as can be made by the hand", then another 1/2 turn, this is probably too much for this valve (and I think Fleck states something like "tighten by hand with no or little force until it stops" and then another 1/4 to 1/2 turn, which is obviously different. Apparently, the Fleck control valves now come with a red label indicating this.

thanks again for everyone's help. this forum was invaluable.

 

[NHmaster3015]

I'm looking at the 1st group of photo's and I'm not seeing where the valve or the bypass is particularly stressed.

 

[NHmaster3015]

Just for grins I just took an old 7000Sxt valve and screwed it in as tight as I possibly could...............no crack, no damage to the valve threads so, some's good and more's better so 3' pipe wrench on the valve and a 5' pipe wrench on the tank. Chewed the crap out of both but again, no visible damage to the valve threads or the tank threads. So, I conclude that you have a valve with a manufacturing defect. Either that or your "plumber is a gorilla

 

[Gary Slusser]

"If you think of hand tighten as "as tight as can be made by the hand", then another 1/2 turn, this is probably too much for this valve (and I think Fleck states something like "tighten by hand with no or little force until it stops" and then another 1/4 to 1/2 turn, which is obviously different. Apparently, the Fleck control valves now come with a red label indicating this."

If I were you I'd get in touch with Fleck and tell them how wrong they are with the red tags.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

It's not about damaging either the tank or valve threads. It's about not bunching, distorting or destroying the O ring.

 

[Gary Slusser]

Really? Here I thought it was about preventing leaks.

 

[NHmaster3015]

Hey, I tried my best to destroy either or both the valve or the tank by cranking the living crap out of them but came up zero. O rings on the other hand are pretty easy to screw up.

 

[Reach4]

When I bought my big blue filters, I bought a 5.3 oz tube of "food-grade silicone
O-Ring Lubricant" (silicone grease). (Some stores sell 1/2 oz containers of silicone grease for the purpose.) What I received was marked MolyKote 111. I put that (probably more than needed) on O-rings before I tighten. I use a nitrile glove to apply the grease to keep my hand from getting messy.

I wasn't totally sure why I was doing that. I thought it was to protect the O-ring so that it could be re-used. I had read that some people used vaseline, and that was bad for the O-ring. I guess the lubricating properties during assembly helped prevent leaks. In the case of the filters, I only tighten hand tight, but I have a wrench for removal.

So the method for a softener controller like the Fleck 7000 would be to turn until you feel the increased resistance when the O-ring contacts and then add 3/8 turn. I would want to put silicone grease on that O-ring/rubber seal too. Do you think kmack should use silicone grease when he puts things back together?

 

[NHmaster3015]

The lube helps the flat sealing surfaces to slide along the O ring rather than catch on it and tear or bunch it up.

 

[ditttohead]

Thank you Tom and nhmaster for intelligent and proper answers on the function of O-ring lubricants. I did a video on a knock off brand of a Big Blue a couple years ago where I showed a customer how even a 94 pound woman could easily get a BB style filter housing to seal by using a proper O-ring lubricant. The dry O-ring would bind up and not allow for an easy seal, the lubricated O-ring was able to be tightened by hand adequately to create an easy seal. Removal was also much easier when the O-ring was lubricated. I will re-do this video when I have my new test bench up and running and our video studio complete.

FYI, Dow 111 was a common O-ring lubricant but it has been rumored that the formula has changed in recent years and it has a tendency to cause some problems inside of control valves. Most larger system assembly companies have switched to Dow release compound #7.

 

[Reach4]

FYI, Dow 111 was a common O-ring lubricant but it has been rumored that the formula has changed in recent years and it has a tendency to cause some problems inside of control valves. Most larger system assembly companies have switched to Dow release compound #7.

I see #7 is less viscous; it is easier to push through a syringe from descriptions I just read. My 111 has a heavy consistency, and a lighter consistency would be easier to apply even by hand, I think. In the Dow MolyKote continuum, high vacuum grease is the heaviest version. http://www.dowcorning.com/content/publishedlit/80-3256.pdf

So in 30 years, when I use up my 111, or more likely lose my tube earlier, I may switch.

 

[NHmaster3015]

when its all gone you can use KY Jelly LOL

Personally though, I thought it was pretty eye opening that even trying hard to destroy either the valve or the tank, I couldn't manage to break either. The next test I'm going to do is to put drastic stress up and down on the assembly and see if I can get it to leak. I'm betting the best I can do is get the O rings in the bypass to weep a bit or maybe snap the bypass off.

 

[Gary Slusser]

I don't know why but I can not find where Tom said anything about o-ring lubricant.

Anyway, it's my understanding that most o-rings used in/on control valves today are made of a more or less self lubricating materials but... IIRC all control valve manuals mention using water as a lubricant too.

Some control valves have a caution against using anything other than water due to lubricants damaging piston seals/lips etc..

 

[NHmaster3015]

Yes some do have that warning. Most likely due to using either the wrong lubricant or slopping too much of it on. Realistically most installers may not have every recommended lube on their truck or in their tool bag so I can imagine that manufacturers have found O ring material that needs very little lube, water or none at all. The important thing is to be careful with the installation and tightening of the whole assembly. I didn't see anything about O ring lube from Tom either

 

[Tom Sawyer]

No, I didn't say anything about O ring lube but I agree with NHMaster