Pressure Tank

[Texas Wellman]

If it was mine I would install a good size well x trol tank and not worry about the CSV. I think CSV's are not very helpful on a jet pump. They even make a well x trol tank that you can mount your pump to, but I think they only go up to the 20 gallon size. If you can set the pressure switch to 40/60 I think you'll be satisfied.

To get better pressure you might be able to change the jet nozzle size out in the pump. It really depends on your pumping level. You'll lose a little water flow but might be able to get the shut off pressure to increase, which is what you really want. Jet pumps don't really put out much water in the first place.

 

[Texas Wellman]

After looking at your pictures again it appears that you have a higher horsepower pump, possibly a 1.5 HP or even a 2 HP (rare). I can tell because of the external capacitor. Look on your motor and see what size the horsepower is. If you cannot see the HP number see if you can get an amps reading via sticker or meter. All of the old AO smith motors had internal capacitors except for the higher 1.5-2Hp pumps. Some of the lesser brands had external capacitors as well but I cannot remember which models exactly.

Sometimes those pumps with higher horsepower like yours are sized for flow and not necessarily pressure. You might benefit from the use of a CSV if it is indeed a higher flow than normal pump. Usually shallow well jet pumps like yours are 1/2 to 1 HP and don't really put out that much water. The piece that attaches to the back of the pump is the jet. If yours is set-up for high flow you may be able to change out the jet to get better pressure. Make sure you use a 75-psig relief valve as those higher HP jet pumps can put out 100 psig in certain circumstances.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Texas Wellman]

I have circled something in your picture as well. I *think* this is a back-pressure regulator those pumps had built into them. You might be able to adjust this to get more pressure out of the pump as well. IMO you don't really need this type of regulator on a shallow well jet pump, but I'm not 100% sure as I have not messed with this type of pump in years. When I use shallow well pumps I normally put a throttling valve just after the discharge. Once I get the pump going and some back-pressure on the tank I open the throttling valve. With a bladder tank you will always have a little back pressure on the pump so you don't really even need any type of regulator and in fact it acts as a restriction and you lose a little pressure that way as well. To lessen the back-pressure on the pump turn the screw counter clockwise a few turns ( if it's not froze up).

Might even be time to upgrade the pump when you do the tank. Goulds makes a nice 3/4 HP shallow well jet pump that should do you a nice job but you need to know the water level to properly size one.

Good luck!

 

[Valveman]

If it was mine I would install a good size well x trol tank and not worry about the CSV. I think CSV's are not very helpful on a jet pump.

Hi TW. I agree that small shallow well jet pumps don't usually make enough flow or pressure to cause much cycling, so a CSV is not as useful in that regard. But I still believe a CSV is a good idea on a shallow well jet if for no other reason, just so you don't have to use a "good size tank". With all the new constant pressure technology available, even like the cheesy little "constant pressure" valve on this old system, "good size tanks" are going the way of the DoDo bird. People are starting to realize that larger pressure tanks do not solve the problems, and even make for longer periods of lower pressure in the house.

 

[Grunt]

Hi TW. I agree that small shallow well jet pumps don't usually make enough flow or pressure to cause much cycling, so a CSV is not as useful in that regard. But I still believe a CSV is a good idea on a shallow well jet if for no other reason, just so you don't have to use a "good size tank". With all the new constant pressure technology available, even like the cheesy little "constant pressure" valve on this old system, "good size tanks" are going the way of the DoDo bird. People are starting to realize that larger pressure tanks do not solve the problems, and even make for longer periods of lower pressure in the house.

I have somewhat decided on going csv valve just for the fact that I will have more room , pressure will be stabilized quickly, but the downside appears that pump will kick on with nearly every use of water. With my bladder tank I was getting a couple of flushes of comodes & short hand washes before pump would kick on.

I have been trying to work out a way to get the pump off the top of the bladder tank, first was mounting plywood on top of my walker & then using a couple pieces of 2x4s to slide the pump over onto me & the walker. After a couple look see dry runs a better idea is to attach a small chain hoist (or something of that effect) to the exposed beam in the ceiling & just lift the pump a couple of inches up (once I have everything cut loose). Then I can just take the stand off & lower it to the floor. I was really sweatin getting that pump out of there, now just have to find a small chain hoist or something similar.

First photo is for texas well mans perusal see if he still thinks it's an adjustment in there, I allways thought it was just another port but never understood why there would be a second discharge on top of the pump, as you can see in the picture the discharge is bushinged down from 1 1/4 to 1 inch, the second port in question is 1 inch. The second picture is so valve man can see the line running from that gizmo to the pressure switch. Getting better at this computer picture krap only had to beat on computer for 1 day this time.
V / R Dwayne

 

[Texas Wellman]

It almost looks like that plug has a small circle on it indicating a cap. The adjustment screw would be under the cap. Either that or the adjustment screw has already been removed and plugged.

 

[Texas Wellman]

PS Carry:. I don't consider a good sized tank to be a negative. Especially during hurricane season.

 

[Valveman]

I don't consider a good sized tank to be a negative.

Most people don't realize big tanks are a negative. They don't know they are living with low pressure as well as wasting space and money on a large pressure tank. But after their first shower with constant pressure, I get a kick out of hearing them say "wow, big difference".

Got the new kit last week and put it in place yesterday. Much better pressure in the shower.

It is like the first time I got cruse control on a car. I didn't miss it before, because I didn't know how good it could be.

 

[Texas Wellman]

I think what I'm trying to say is being twisted or misrepresented, so I'll re-state. IMO, a CSV on a shallow well jet pump isn't really all that necessary or useful. As the OP's pump/tank lasted many years mounted to a regular tank I rest my case. Further, a nice large well x trol that the on/off pressure is set for 40/60 should always have decent pressure.

I'm much more convinced that the "pressure" problems in homes is caused by old and clogged piping systems than true bad pressure. I've seen enough 1/2" and 3/4" pipes come out of houses 80% clogged to know this is true. I can take a shower at 100 psig and 1 gpm flow but I'd much rather prefer 10 psig and 10 gpm flow. As the flow goes up with old clogged piping the pressure goes way down.

 

[Grunt]

PS Carry:. I don't consider a good sized tank to be a negative. Especially during hurricane season.

"Hurricane" one of my trigger words, got a powerful itch & gotta scratch it. This may get lengthy you should probably just print it down & use it as humoress bathroom reading material.

I AGGREE, a pressure tank is handy during times of power outages. SHE can get 7 or 8 flushes with her water saver commode in one of her 2 upstairs bathrooms, thats right she has 2 full sized bathrooms, (me the dog & the cats share a small downstairs). During power outages I normally relieve outside - usually on her rose bushes. During a recent lizard hunting expedition with 8 year old grandson he felt the urge so grandpa taught him how to relieve on the bushes, afterwards in his excitement of what he perceived as something grandiose he ran into the house & excitedly told mom & grandma what he had been taught. Following which there was a shit storm of biblical proportions that lasted quite some days.

I have a flex right 80 gallon tank I installed a few years ago for a contact tank for chlorinator de-chlorinator system, the steel tank that used to be here had developed a pinhole (rust) seepage. I need only a 2-3 ppm mix in the tank to take care of low sulfur & iron, works very well. Carbon in back wash tank usually last between 4-5 years.

After a hurricane we can use the water in the contact tank by either first a carbon gravity filter, (the one I have was originally designed for military use in the field), other option is use aquarium pump with airstone & generally within 24 hours chlorine level below 1ppm. Also the water in 50 gl water heater And the bath tubs. No worries on water storage.

I have a couple inverter generators & portable air conditioners which have 2 gl buckets that store condensate, when full we pour them into the commode tank. Then there is always setting out buckets & catching rain water. With the inverter generators there are parallel cables to hook them together so I have a total of 52 amps but not 220v only 115 volt. Generators are trii-fuel NG, LP, unleaded, 285 gallon underground LP tank, 3 portable unleaded storage tanks total 65 gl.

Texas wellman; the pump motor is 1 hp 9 amp to answer your previous question that I forgot to answer & is wired for 220v from main breaker box. Generator plugs into 30amp plug on outside of house to power up main breaker box (& yes have lock out transfer switch) just have to insure to turn off all 220v breakers.I could run the pump on 115v but don't trust myself reading the wiring diagrahm on the back plate thru the use of a mirror & moving the wires around corectly. Notice how close back of motor is to wall previouse pictures. Don't expect me to try any more
pictures for awhile.

Was on 2 large below ground septic systems nothing wrong with them but city installed suction sewer system thru street & was advised that impact fees were 1/2 to tie on now & if I didn't can't sell house until I do tie on plus city would have to inspect septic systems every 3 years & cost of pumping tanks/ inspection fees etc: I felt forced to tie on. Problem was tap / pod was not deep enough to allow me to run gravity sewer to tap so I installed a 2000 gl lift station with an oversized pump. I manualy turn pump on to get it completely empty just as the hurricane hits otherwise I have floats set so tank never gets above 1/3 full. Should pod fill up because city unable to keep suction pumps /system working after hurricane my lift station will force feed the pod & will no doubt go up the neighbors sewer. Don't like them neibours anyways (renters).

I'm fairly decided on replacing my blown bladder tank with a csv but now am hearing from others that they leak & the ones you can get that don't leak don't work as well. I keep getting pushed into straddle the fence mode. Will be draining down & cutting everything loose to get tank out Tuesday, hopefully I hear more positive feedback on cvs.

Another thought might be to upgrade to a Goulds J10s set at 40/60 an 86 gallon X trol and if that isn't sufficient then add a csv set for 50psi,
not sure would have to experiment. And from what I can see the goulds is easy to switch from 220v to 115v if I need to.

My primary objective is to increase pressure & flow for her upstairs bathrooms from 40/43 2 1/2 gl per minute to around 53 psi without the use of a booster pump or going to a 1 1/2 hp pump. With a 1 1/2 hp pump I would probably over limit generators on 115v if I ever had to power it that way. All the years of untold sacrifices SHE endured overseas in third world countries & islands during my military career I now would like to make her as comfotable as possible in what is termed our golden years and the water is just one of many items on my list.

Thanx for advice and allowing me to occasionally bend your ears.
V / R Dwayne

 

[Valveman]

I AGGREE, a pressure tank is handy during times of power outages. SHE can get 7 or 8 flushes with her water saver commode in one of her 2 upstairs bathrooms,

You can get 7-8 flushes IF you are lucky enough for the big pressure tank to be full when the power goes off. That rarely happens. With a 40/60 switch the pressure could be anywhere between 60 and 41 when the power goes off. If it happen to be at 60, you can flush 7-8 times. If it happen to be at 41, you don't even have one flush of water in that large tank. Gravity from the water heater and aquarium will be there when you need it, water from the pressure tank most likely will not. Starting your generator to take a shower will also refill the water heater and aquarium.

My primary objective is to increase pressure & flow for her upstairs bathrooms from 40/43 2 1/2 gl per minute to around 53 psi without the use of a booster pump or going to a 1 1/2 hp pump.

You are only getting 43 PSI now because that is all the pump can do. That little constant pressure device just blocks the pressure switch line, and the pressure you get is what the pump can produce. If you want a strong 53 PSI, then you will need a pump that can do 53 PSI at the flow required. You might look into using a sub well pump in the cistern as they will build more pressure.

And if you don't want the shower pressure to be varying from 60 all the way down to 40, then you will either need to keep using that little constant pressure "pressure switch hider", or get a CSV1A that can be set at 53 PSI as required. And then either way the large pressure tank means the shower pressure will be dwindling down to 40 PSI for several minutes before the pump is started and the pressure increases.

With the small tank and CSV you won't even know the pressure dropped to 40 as it will happen very quickly. You would just see a constant 50 or 53 if you like, for as long as the shower is running. Don't get me wrong, the CSV will work fine with a large pressure tank. But if you have a 80 gallon tank that holds 25 gallons of water, you will be 7-8 minutes into a 3 GPM shower with pressure continually weakening until the pump starts and the constant pressure you desire is finally achieved.

 

[Valveman]

I think what I'm trying to say is being twisted or misrepresented, so I'll re-state. IMO, a CSV on a shallow well jet pump isn't really all that necessary or useful. As the OP's pump/tank lasted many years mounted to a regular tank I rest my case. Further, a nice large well x trol that the on/off pressure is set for 40/60 should always have decent pressure.

I am not twisting your words, 40/60 is 40/60 pressure no matter how you say it. And 40 PSI maybe "decent" pressure, but it is almost half the pressure you have when the system is at 60 PSI. And the OP's system lasted many years, I believe mainly because of the little "pressure switch blocking device", that keeps the pump from cycling itself to death. And you are right that a CSV is not as helpful on a small shallow well jet pump like a 1/2 or 3/4HP, as they produce weak pressure to start with and barely pump enough water to cycle anyway. But with a 1HP or 1.5HP jet pump the CSV eliminates a lot of cycles and holds much stronger constant pressure to the house.

I'm much more convinced that the "pressure" problems in homes is caused by old and clogged piping systems than true bad pressure. I've seen enough 1/2" and 3/4" pipes come out of houses 80% clogged to know this is true. I can take a shower at 100 psig and 1 gpm flow but I'd much rather prefer 10 psig and 10 gpm flow. As the flow goes up with old clogged piping the pressure goes way down.

Sure the pipes to the shower are always too small and/or partly clogged. That is why higher and stronger constant pressure make a big difference. If the lines are small or clogged and you are going to loose say 10 PSI at shower flow, then when the pressure is at 40 on the tank, you only have 30 at the shower. When the pump cycles on and the pressure climbs to 60 PSI, you will have 50 PSI at the shower for a couple minutes. Then the shower pressure will decrease again to 30 PSI.

You can set a CSV to hold a constant 60 PSI. Then with a 10 PSI loss in the pipe, you will still have a strong 50 PSI constant at the shower for as long as the shower is on. Most people tell me the constant pressure is so much stronger in the shower that they no longer need soap, as the water will just blast the dirt off of them.

 

[Texas Wellman]

I'm not against CSV's. Quite contrary I have one on one of my personal wells.

I think something that is either lost or ignored by valveman is how a well system works during a power outage such as the kind we often experience here on the gulf coast. It doesn't matter where the pressure is when the power goes off. The standard practice is to batch the water in via a genset 2-3 times per day. When the water tank gets low or empty you run the generator some more.

Even if you continually run the generator most gensets cannot run everything plus the well pump at the same time. This is where the old std galvanized tanks shine. With a decent air charge you can easily get 20-30 gallons of water out of a 82 gallon tank.

I've lived on wells my entire life. I've never even noticed when the pressure was at the low point in the cycle, especially with lower flow faucets. Only when you have a system where the pump cannot meet or beat the demand and the pressure dwindles down into the 20's.

 

[Texas Wellman]

Dwayne I'm not trying to talk you out of a csv. What I am trying to do is talk you out of a small tank. Go with a 20 gallon well x troll. Set the pressure on the switch to 40-60 and the pressure on the csv to 55 psig. Let us know how you like it. Good luck. I hope you can find somebody to give you a hand.

 

[Valveman]

The standard practice is to batch the water in via a genset 2-3 times per day. When the water tank gets low or empty you run the generator some more.

Well I can't argue with that. But if you are going to use the tank for storage, I would get an 80 gallon size tank that holds 20 gallons of water instead of a 20 gallon tank that only holds 5 gallons. However, I would probably leave it valved off until I needed it for storage, because I CAN see the difference in pressure and don't like waiting for a big tank to drain while seeing the pressure continually decrease.

There are cases where a big tank and a CSV work well together. But if the main factor is keeping the wife happy with strong constant pressure, the big tank is going to keep that from happening.

 

[Craigpump]

Well I can't argue with that. But if you are going to use the tank for storage, I would get an 80 gallon size tank that holds 20 gallons of water instead of a 20 gallon tank that only holds 5 gallons. However, I would probably leave it valved off until I needed it for storage, because I CAN see the difference in pressure and don't like waiting for a big tank to drain while seeing the pressure continually decrease.

There are cases where a big tank and a CSV work well together. But if the main factor is keeping the wife happy with strong constant pressure, the big tank is going to keep that from happening.

HAPPY WIFE? Who are you kidding .......lol

 

[Grunt]

QUOTE="Texas Wellman, post: 511316, member: 38600"]Dwayne I'm not trying to talk you out of a csv. What I am trying to do is talk you out of a small tank. Go with a 20 gallon well x troll. Set the pressure on the switch to 40-60 and the pressure on the csv to 55 psig. Let us know how you like it. Good luck. I hope you can find somebody to give you a hand.[/QUOTE]

Can't run this pump 40/60 best I can get is 52 & thats pushing her takes appx 50 seconds for her to get in the last 2-3 psi so I run her up to 50 psi
max entire time for her to from 30 psi to 50 is 95 sec. Pump is a sta-rite ANE-20 dicontinued model very little info for pump at sta rite site except to show replacement parts still available (possibly), pump is over 33 years old have a receipt from previouse home owner where motor was damaged by lighting strike & motor was replaced. Also have the owners manuel but a couple pages missing & pages that are left are brown & crumbly.
I do have a picture out of the book that shows pump capacity at 30 psi only & note that I am pumping up from 20 feet. First photo my pump is second line from bottom 30 psi 20 feet =13.3 gpm which to me makes sense because I get 12.5 gpm from hose bib with letting pump run for 15 min before I collect water into buckets.

The second picture is of a goulds pump j10s at 20 feet 50 psi 12.2 gpm 16.6 at 40 psi am thinking of getting that pump (it weighs 25 lbs less too) but would like your input first would it be a significan't difference, can get it for $400.00 and another big plus for me is it appears that to switch it from 220v to 115 v is just moving a switch of some type.
Very intrested in your advise will be waiting if I am going to do this need to move quickly my discount thru the cob union #129 right now gets it a little cheaper.
V / R Dwayne

 

[Texas Wellman]

The J10S is an excellent pump and would be a good choice for your application. I'm not sure why you want to convert it over to 110V, 220V IMO is a better choice. It will use almost the same electricity (110V pulls 2x amps therefore has slightly higher energy loss). Most motors of that design have one little part (clip plastic thingy) you pull it up and move it over one slot to go 110V. Some from a few years ago had a switch you simply turn left or right but for some reason they got away from that design. Yours probably is the old style that two wires have to be switched. Easy to do, hard to explain.

If you really want constant pressure I would match that up with Cary's CSV and a 20 gallon tank, I would not use one of those small tanks for this application. There are two reasons for this: first, the hurricane problem we discussed earlier and 2nd in case the footvalve leaks back if the power goes out it would be much better to have several gallons of pressurized water available to prime the well with. It wouldn't be too hard to change the footvalve if need be but most of the time having 4-5 gallons of pressurized water will overcome a slight footvalve leak for several days.

 

[Grunt]

The J10S is an excellent pump and would be a good choice for your application. I'm not sure why you want to convert it over to 110V, 220V IMO is a better choice. It will use almost the same electricity (110V pulls 2x amps therefore has slightly higher energy loss). Most motors of that design have one little part (clip plastic thingy) you pull it up and move it over one slot to go 110V. Some from a few years ago had a switch you simply turn left or right but for some reason they got away from that design. Yours probably is the old style that two wires have to be switched. Easy to do, hard to explain.

If you really want constant pressure I would match that up with Cary's CSV and a 20 gallon tank, I would not use one of those small tanks for this application. There are two reasons for this: first, the hurricane problem we discussed earlier and 2nd in case the footvalve leaks back if the power goes out it would be much better to have several gallons of pressurized water available to prime the well with. It wouldn't be too hard to change the footvalve if need be but most of the time having 4-5 gallons of pressurized water will overcome a slight footvalve leak for several days.

Only looking at switching to 115v if power out IE hurricane etc, in my previouse post I had stated how hard it is to get to the back of the motor & have to use a mirror to read wiring diagrahm & try & switch wires around-never did it was to unsure. I was interested in what you see in the diff
of the two pumps in pumping capacity / pressure how much GAIN do you think I would see if I went with the j10s from what I have now.

Yes aggree with you on 20 gallon (5gl) tank & csv.
But just had a thought, once the water / fixture is closed the csv continues to let 1 gpm thru to fill pressure tank, using their 1 gal tank it runs the pump for 1 minute but having a 20 gl tank (5 gl) it would take the pump running 5 minutes to fill the tank, if thats correct I don't think I want the pump to run that long to fill a tank seems like a waste of electric ?
V / R
Dwayne

 

[Texas Wellman]

It does use a bit more power to operate. That is one of the negatives.

The only reason to switch the pump to 110v power is if you're generator is 110v. The smallest generator to run a 1-hp jet will be a 3500 watt ( not all generators are created equal). Most use a 5500 watt.

Only looking at switching to 115v if power out IE hurricane etc, in my previouse post I had stated how hard it is to get to the back of the motor & have to use a mirror to read wiring diagrahm & try & switch wires around-never did it was to unsure. I was interested in what you see in the diff
of the two pumps in pumping capacity / pressure how much GAIN do you think I would see if I went with the j10s from what I have now.

Yes aggree with you on 20 gallon (5gl) tank & csv.
But just had a thought, once the water / fixture is closed the csv continues to let 1 gpm thru to fill pressure tank, using their 1 gal tank it runs the pump for 1 minute but having a 20 gl tank (5 gl) it would take the pump running 5 minutes to fill the tank, if thats correct I don't think I want the pump to run that long to fill a tank seems like a waste of electric ?
V / R
Dwayne