Pressure Tank

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Grunt

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Sta-rite Con-air model 82te pressure tank. Can't find any info about tank, tank charge looses appx 7 psi over 5 day period. Keep recharging to 28 psi as required. Had found schrader valve leaking & replaced it & does not leak from that any more but still loosing air somewhere. Shallow well, pump & tank inside no rust no leaks. Can tell that bladder is replaceable from bottom side. Would like to find info on tank & ideas on where air going. Suspect pin hole in bladder ? Not getting water from air inlet ( schrader valve ), Can shake tank doesn't feel heavy. Any help appreciated.
V / R
Dwayne Ret. Military ( And still married )
 

Reach4

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Would like to find info on tank & ideas on where air going.
Put saliva or bubble solution over the schrader valve. If it does not bubble, the air is going into the water through the hole that you suspect.

I don't what compatible replaceable bladder is available. Most people would just replace the tank with a new diaphragm pressure tank. Diaphragm tanks last longer than bladder tanks.
 

Grunt

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Put saliva or bubble solution over the schrader valve. If it does not bubble, the air is going into the water through the hole that you suspect.

I don't what compatible replaceable bladder is available. Most people would just replace the tank with a new diaphragm pressure tank. Diaphragm tanks last longer than bladder tanks.
Put saliva or bubble solution over the schrader valve. If it does not bubble, the air is going into the water through the hole that you suspect.

I don't what compatible replaceable bladder is available. Most people would just replace the tank with a new diaphragm pressure tank. Diaphragm tanks last longer than bladder tanks.
Allready had checked & replaced leaking schrader valve and rechecked.
V/R Dwayne
 

craigpump

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StaRight never made a good tank. The gimmick of replaceable air cells was pretty much a con job, I doubt you could even find one. Your best bet is to put in a Well X Trol of the same size and be done with it. It will be more money than a Home Depot or Lowes special, but you won't be replacing it every 6 or 7 years either.
 

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Can Air tanks didn't even make good BBQ pits. Made to sell, not to last. Anything with a replaceable bladder is a bad idea. Like craigpump says WellXtrol is you best bet for a big tank. That would be a model WX302, which isn't cheap. By the way a 86 gallon tank only holds 25 gallons of water. Instead of the big tank you could replace that with a Pside-Kick model PK1A, that only needs a 4.5 gallon size tank. It would cost much less and do a better job than a big tank. See it here. https://cpkits.com/collections/frontpage/products/pk1a

 

Grunt

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Can Air tanks didn't even make good BBQ pits. Made to sell, not to last. Anything with a replaceable bladder is a bad idea. Like craigpump says WellXtrol is you best bet for a big tank. That would be a model WX302, which isn't cheap. By the way a 86 gallon tank only holds 25 gallons of water. Instead of the big tank you could replace that with a Pside-Kick model PK1A, that only needs a 4.5 gallon size tank. It would cost much less and do a better job than a big tank. See it here. https://cpkits.com/collections/frontpage/products/pk1a

Tank has been working fine for 28 years, checked it every 3-4 months guess I just been lucky till now. Have been reading a lot on the csv but it would seem that I would have more cycles per day. Comodes in this house use 4.5 gallon per flush. The pressure tank is appx 22 gallon at 30x50
pressure setting based on my junk science Size of tank 33x22 wish I could find some manuel or info on tank I would know more (sta-rite con-air model 82te). Still not sure which way I want to go. Between the beating I took in the military & my age it will take some to change out as the pump is on top of the tank & all is in a somewhat tight space. The pump is a sta-rite ANE series 1hp, my guesstimate is 80 pounds. Also would like to find an impeller upgrade for this pump to increase pressure but am sure such a thing doesn't exisit. So I drift back to thinking csv valve.
V / R
Dwayne
 

Valveman

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Because the CSV keeps the pump running continuously until you are finished using water, instead of cycling on and off while you are using water, there will not be too many cycles per day, even with the smaller tank. 22 gallons is about right for a 80 gallon tank. So if your house uses 300 gallons per day, that is 14 pump cycles. The CSV and small tank would make the pump run every time you use water, so if you use water 14 different times per day, the number of cycles will be the same. But if you ever use water for long periods of time, the CSV would reduce the number of cycles considerably. The main difference would be instead of seeing the pressure drop to a low 30 PSI two or three times during a shower, the CSV would just hold a strong 40 PSI constant for as long as you are in the shower. Not to mention the savings in money and space using the PK1A kit instead of another 80 gallon tank.

And I seriously doubt that tank bladder lasted 28 years. It probably had a crack in it by the second or third year. A little water got on the air side of the bladder and just sat there. It took many years to loose enough air to start causing a problem. But that little bit of water that has been on the inside of that bladder for 20 years is probably pretty nasty. A tank with a bad bladder may still work for a while, but it could easily be adding contamination to your drinking water.
 

Grunt

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Because the CSV keeps the pump running continuously until you are finished using water, instead of cycling on and off while you are using water, there will not be too many cycles per day, even with the smaller tank. 22 gallons is about right for a 80 gallon tank. So if your house uses 300 gallons per day, that is 14 pump cycles. The CSV and small tank would make the pump run every time you use water, so if you use water 14 different times per day, the number of cycles will be the same. But if you ever use water for long periods of time, the CSV would reduce the number of cycles considerably. The main difference would be instead of seeing the pressure drop to a low 30 PSI two or three times during a shower, the CSV would just hold a strong 40 PSI constant for as long as you are in the shower. Not to mention the savings in money and space using the PK1A kit instead of another 80 gallon tank.

And I seriously doubt that tank bladder lasted 28 years. It probably had a crack in it by the second or third year. A little water got on the air side of the bladder and just sat there. It took many years to loose enough air to start causing a problem. But that little bit of water that has been on the inside of that bladder for 20 years is probably pretty nasty. A tank with a bad bladder may still work for a while, but it could easily be adding contamination to your drinking water.[/QUOTE

After reading a few years of blogs on this site I have a better understanding of complaints about cycling. I have never had the problem of when taking a shower the pump pressure rises up to the shut off point (50 psi) then drops to cut in (30 psi) & continualy repeating until shower complete, the same is with any fixture in the house that I have turned on, the exception would be flushing the comode which doesn't cause the pump to kick in unless small amounts of water have been used which caused the pressure to be close to cut-in (30 psi). I only notice a slight increase in shower pressure when pump kicks in & pressure stablizes at 43 psi until shower valve shut. That is the upstairs shower head. Tested the flow & pressure a few minutes ago by letting the shower run for 10 minutes then checking pressure at pump in garage which was stable at 43 psi
& collected 2.5 gpm thats with shower head on. With shower head off pressure stable at 42 psi collected 3.3 gpm. Bath tub (upstairs) stable 38 psi
collected 6 gpm. Out side hose bib stable 34 psi 12 gpm. Downstairs bath room & kitchen have better pressure & flow but any fixture running has enough flow which prevents pressure from building back up to cut-off pressure (50 psi). Note that all restrictors are removed from all fixtures including the ristrictors in the facuet areators. It take my pump 95 seconds to build pressure back up to cut-out (50psi) and the majority of that time is in the last 5 psi. If I understand correctly the csv will elemininate the bounce from the cut-in pressure (30 psi) to the 38 or 43 psi flowing pressure at the fixtures or the bounce would be so quick it would not be noticed due to the small pressure tank ? I have something on discharge of my pump that many many years ago had a small leak, can't remember what it's for & no amount of research helps. The pressure switch is run by it & I repaired the leak by replacing a gasket, it has something to do with pressure control thru pressure switch would like to know what it is & how it works. I knew at one time but can't remember it's been so many years. I have 3 fotos below and hope they stay there so you can see, don't have much computer skills it took 2 days to try & get photos on the screen, also if theres a lot of misspellings it's because I can't find that dam smell right button. V / R Dwayne

Last Import - 2 of 3.jpgLast Import - 3 of 3.jpgLast Import - 1 of 3.jpg
 

Grunt

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After reading a few years of blogs on this site I have a better understanding of complaints about cycling. I have never had the problem of when taking a shower the pump pressure rises up to the shut off point (50 psi) then drops to cut in (30 psi) & continualy repeating until shower complete, the same is with any fixture in the house that I have turned on, the exception would be flushing the comode which doesn't cause the pump to kick in unless small amounts of water have been used which caused the pressure to be close to cut-in (30 psi). I only notice a slight increase in shower pressure when pump kicks in & pressure stablizes at 43 psi until shower valve shut. That is the upstairs shower head. Tested the flow & pressure a few minutes ago by letting the shower run for 10 minutes then checking pressure at pump in garage which was stable at 43 psi
& collected 2.5 gpm thats with shower head on. With shower head off pressure stable at 42 psi collected 3.3 gpm. Bath tub (upstairs) stable 38 psi
collected 6 gpm. Out side hose bib stable 34 psi 12 gpm. Downstairs bath room & kitchen have better pressure & flow but any fixture running has enough flow which prevents pressure from building back up to cut-off pressure (50 psi). Note that all restrictors are removed from all fixtures including the ristrictors in the facuet areators. It take my pump 95 seconds to build pressure back up to cut-out (50psi) and the majority of that time is in the last 5 psi. If I understand correctly the csv will elemininate the bounce from the cut-in pressure (30 psi) to the 38 or 43 psi flowing pressure at the fixtures or the bounce would be so quick it would not be noticed due to the small pressure tank ? I have something on discharge of my pump that many many years ago had a small leak, can't remember what it's for & no amount of research helps. The pressure switch is run by it & I repaired the leak by replacing a gasket, it has something to do with pressure control thru pressure switch would like to know what it is & how it works. I knew at one time but can't remember it's been so many years. I have 3 fotos below and hope they stay there so you can see, don't have much computer skills it took 2 days to try & get photos on the screen, also if theres a lot of misspellings it's because I can't find that dam smell right button. V / R Dwayne

 

Reach4

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I have never had the problem of when taking a shower the pump pressure rises up to the shut off point (50 psi) then drops to cut in (30 psi) & continualy repeating until shower complete,
How frequently does this cycle? 6 times per minute=every 10 seconds, or what?

If I understand correctly the csv will elemininate the bounce from the cut-in pressure (30 psi) to the 38 or 43 psi flowing pressure at the fixtures or the bounce would be so quick it would not be noticed due to the small pressure tank ?
This bounce you are getting now... I think you are talking about a period of a second or less-- is that what you are calling a bounce? So a stutter in pressure rather than a period of many seconds? If so, you may have too much precharge air in your air tank. I also suspect that your pump cut-on pressure may be higher than 30, but it is hard to be sure. With a jet pump you usually want the precharge air 3 or 4 PSI below the cut-on pressure. That is because it takes more time for a jet pump to respond with pressure compared to a submersible pump.

There are two ways to go. One way would be to figure out the actual c
What is your air pre-charge (always measure that with your water pressure=zero)?
If the pressure is higher than 28, I would reduce the precharge by 1 or 2 PSI. If it is 27 or less, I will be surprised. Let us know what you find out.

On thing that can confuse things is a difference in calibration of the air pressure gauge and the water pressure gauge. When the pump is off and the water pressure gauge is reading in the 40s, the air pressure should be very close to the water pressure. I would compare the readings to check the gauges.

Incidentally, your pictures came out fine. That is an interesting PVC connection up top.
 

Grunt

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How frequently does this cycle? 6 times per minute=every 10 seconds, or what?


This bounce you are getting now... I think you are talking about a period of a second or less-- is that what you are calling a bounce? So a stutter in pressure rather than a period of many seconds? If so, you may have too much precharge air in your air tank. I also suspect that your pump cut-on pressure may be higher than 30, but it is hard to be sure. With a jet pump you usually want the precharge air 3 or 4 PSI below the cut-on pressure. That is because it takes more time for a jet pump to respond with pressure compared to a submersible pump.

There are two ways to go. One way would be to figure out the actual c
What is your air pre-charge (always measure that with your water pressure=zero)?
If the pressure is higher than 28, I would reduce the precharge by 1 or 2 PSI. If it is 27 or less, I will be surprised. Let us know what you find out.

On thing that can confuse things is a difference in calibration of the air pressure gauge and the water pressure gauge. When the pump is off and the water pressure gauge is reading in the 40s, the air pressure should be very close to the water pressure. I would compare the readings to check the gauges.

Incidentally, your pictures came out fine. That is an interesting PVC connection up top.

I wasn't infering that there was a problem, only describing my normal cycling of pressure using upstairs fixtures for examples, compared to others I have read I do not experience the full pump cycling while running a fixture such as the shower which seems to be a lot of complaints . In other words some people turn on a shower or fixture the system is charged to 50 psi & as the pressure drops & hits 30 psi the pump kicks on & pressure builds back up to 50 psi & pump shuts off again until pressure reaches cut-in again (30 psi) all the while they are showering or running a fixture, this fluction of pressure & water comming out of shower head for example is irritating & causing the pump to cycle (start & stop) more often than recommended. I described my cycling which is only partial as my pressure stabilizes at example 43 psi never reaching 50 psi cut-off until i'm finished showering or using whatever fixture and am wondering if this gizmo on the discharge of the pump has something to do with managing my pressure and cycling. I know that there are diaphrams & springs inside it as I had it apart once many years ago to replace a leaky gasket but can't remember what it's called, how it works, or what it's designed to do.

On another subject it's my understanding that a small bladder tank with a cvs valve there will be no time to notice a fall in pressure from 50 psi to (pump on) cut-in 30 psi then the rise to my stableized pressure of 43 psi until valve / fixture is closed. It would be a lot easier just to do a show & tell but I understand why no one want's to come over here it's gotten so dam cold here probably hit 52 degrees last night I even had to turn the furnance on.
V / R Dwayne
 

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I wasn't infering that there was a problem, only describing my normal cycling of pressure using upstairs fixtures for examples
I did not know what you consider normal. So the "bounce" you described was a smooth change in pressure over many seconds, rather than some sudden change. Got it.

On another subject it's my understanding that a small bladder tank with a cvs valve there will be no time to notice a fall in pressure from 50 psi to (pump on) cut-in 30 psi then the rise to my stableized pressure of 43 psi
Not "no" time. That could be what I would estimate could be over 30 seconds, depending on your shower head. On the other hand that may have all happened before you step into the shower waiting for the hot water to arrive.
It would be a lot easier just to do a show & tell
I don't understand that part. Are you looking for a video?
 

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I don't know what that thing on top of the pump is. Does it have a name or any model numbers on it? Apparently the pressure switch on the side of the motor is still tuning the pump on and off, so I don't know what the black thing is doing. It is either working similar to a CSV, or your pump just can't build enough flow and pressure to cycle while a faucet is on.
 

Grunt

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I did not know what you consider normal. So the "bounce" you described was a smooth change in pressure over many seconds, rather than some sudden change. Got it.


Not "no" time. That could be what I would estimate could be over 30 seconds, depending on your shower head. On the other hand that may have all happened before you step into the shower waiting for the hot water to arrive.

I don't understand that part. Are you looking for a video?

That 30 seconds you're referring to i'm assuming you're referring to the use of a 1 gallon pressure tank with csv valve ? Right now with my 22 gallon pressure tank & whatever that gizmo on the discharge of my pump takes 38 seconds to drop to cut-in pressure & then rise & stabilizes at 43 psi for upstairs shower running. Yes pressure tank at 28 psi, cut-in cut-out 30/ 50. Pressure tank started small leak app 5 weeks ago loose 7 psi per week so am topping it off every 3-4 days & hunting for information on bladder tank led me here to this site which I am grateful for and appreciate all the info / help I recieve. Seriousely considering a csv valve with the 1 gallon pressure tank to replace the leaking 22 gal I have now.

Not looking for a video; I was setting myself up to take a shot across the bow from others who are in areas a great deal colder than where I am.
V / R Dwayne
 

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I think I recognize that thing on top of the pump. It is a flow control device. It is suppose to cover the inlet to the pressure switch and not let the pump shut off as long as there is about 1/5th of a GPM flowing. When flow stops, it opens the line to the pressure switch and lets the pump shut off. But the pressure switch should be attached to the 1/4" outlet on the backside. So I don't see how it is working.

Yes if you are replacing a tank, the CSV and 4..5 gallon size tank is all you need.
 

Grunt

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I think I recognize that thing on top of the pump. It is a flow control device. It is suppose to cover the inlet to the pressure switch and not let the pump shut off as long as there is about 1/5th of a GPM flowing. When flow stops, it opens the line to the pressure switch and lets the pump shut off. But the pressure switch should be attached to the 1/4" outlet on the backside. So I don't see how it is working.

Yes if you are replacing a tank, the CSV and 4..5 gallon size tank is all you need.

A line is attached to the 1/4 inch port on the back side of it then the line is attached to the pressure switch. If you enlarge the top view picture you can see the 1/4 inch 90 on the back side of it. I think your right about it's operation. Will test it tomorrow.

When you say 4..5 gallon size tank with the csv are you saying 4 to 5 gal & are those true gallons held by tank bladder or is that just the size of the tank & holds only 1 gallon ?

Also when I set the pump on the floor it will have 3 feet less hight for draw from well, according to the formula that I have found ( stinking algebra Krap) & the best that I can work it I should have an additional 4psi that I can adjust up to ?
V /R Dwayne
 

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I couldn't see the tube. But if that tube is attached to the pressure switch, then it is one of those things that kind of works like a CSV. It just blocks the path the that tube and pressure switch as long as there is a little flow. As soon as the flow stops, it opens the line to the pressure switch, and lets the pump shut off. The flow switch part of that device is usually unreliable. But as long as it is working it is keeping the pump from cycling on and off.

Lowering the pump 3' will certainly help. But I doubt it will make 4 PSI difference. 2.31' = 1 PSI
 

Grunt

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I couldn't see the tube. But if that tube is attached to the pressure switch, then it is one of those things that kind of works like a CSV. It just blocks the path the that tube and pressure switch as long as there is a little flow. As soon as the flow stops, it opens the line to the pressure switch, and lets the pump shut off. The flow switch part of that device is usually unreliable. But as long as it is working it is keeping the pump from cycling on and off.

Lowering the pump 3' will certainly help. But I doubt it will make 4 PSI difference. 2.31' = 1 PSI

When you say 4..5 gallon size tank with the csv are you saying 4 to 5 gal & are those true gallons held by tank bladder or is that just the size of the tank & holds only 1 gallon ?
V / R
 

Reach4

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When you say 4..5 gallon size tank with the csv are you saying 4 to 5 gal & are those true gallons held by tank bladder or is that just the size of the tank & holds only 1 gallon ?
V / R

Total size 4 or 5 gallons, and holds about 1 gallon of water.
 
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