I hope Septic questions are OK...in a bit of an emergency! Help.

[bluinc]

I have a 1977 era septic system out here in Edgewater MD. In the backyard is a concrete cylinder with a notch at the top, with a concrete round lid set on top. Coming out of that cylinder notch are TWO electrical plugs with a strange configuration: One of the plugs, the white one is a standard 3 prong 110v male plug. Here is what is weird: The white plug is plugged INTO a black Male AND Female 3-pronged type plug. The male end of this black plug is then plugged into a standard outlet afixed to a 4x4 poking out of the ground next to the concrete cylinder.

Fast forward. One day while running the downstairs basement washing machine, water started shooting out of an open vent. (the washer dumps water into the cleanout - not my config - its how I found the house when I bought it) The cleanout is about 4 feet off the deck.

Troubleshooting revealed that my septic pump is not working, (was thus full, hence the backup) because there is no power going to that plug. I suspect that a groundhog chewed through the underground line providing power to the septic pump. As a temporary fix, I ran an extension cord out to that area and plugged the black plug into it. Worked fine...till the rains came. I didnt think to protect this arrangement from water intrusion (big dummy, I know). the left slot of the female side of the extension cord is now black and kindof melted, and the adjoining right hand male prong (hot side?) is now all black and dangling loose. Power is again off line to the pump, and there seems to be raw sewage collecting around the cylinder. I can smell hydrogen sulfide in this area.

As another temporary fix to at least get the pump online, I unplugged the extension cord and proceeded to 1) cut off the melted female head of the orange extension cord exposing the black, white and green wire. 2) cut off the head of both the white and black 3 prong plugs, then AND HERE IS WHERE I NEED TO KNOW IF I TOTALLY SCREWED UP, I joined all three white wires together with a wire nut then all three black wires with a second wire nut and last, the two green ground with a third wire nut. Seemed to be the common sense thing to do. Here is where it gets crazy. When I plugged the extension cord back in - hoping I had just properly hardwired the pump, it started smoking and then a foot and a half flame shot out of the base below the male end of the orange extension cord. Scared the bejeezes out of me.

To end the drama, I grabbed two wooden 2x4 pieces and unplugged the orange extension cord. All clear.

....

I'll wait for everyone to stop laughing....

...

Ok,

So...what happened? Was the extension cord perhaps shorted from the previous melting, OR WAS I WRONG BY JOINING ALL THE SAME COLORED WIRES TOGETHER. My basic wiring 101 says that was the correct thing to do - but the foot and a half flame tells me..uh..no.

The emergency is, there is what smells like sewer water seeping up around that concrete tube, telling me I need to get that pump online asap or it will back up even more, or worse, damage the septic tank.

I'd also like to know if I now fried my pump. How does one test for that?

BIG QUESTION: What the heck are those TWO wires coming out of the cylinder? Why not just ONE line to the pump. What is the second for? There is no alarm monitoring system to this. (remember, its a 1977 era arrangement.)

I am all ears! Please help guys!

 

[hj]

YES, you screwed up majorly. The first cord, the one that plugs into the wall, is usually the switch. When you connected its black wire to the "hot" side, and the white to the "neutral" you created a short circuit as soon as the switch tried to turn the pump on.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[bluinc]

Dang. So, now what.

 

[Jadnashua]

I think you have something like the crude drawing. There's a leg that goes to a switch (probably a float switch, which now, is probably closed and trying to turn the pump on), and the other leg goes to the actual pump. The third end is where power comes from. You'll need a meter to figure this out, but you should be able to hardwire it back together so it will work until you can buy some new stuff so it's easier to fix next time.

 

[hj]

First you have to determine which of the wires is the switch, because the one into the wall could be the switch and the pump is piggybacked to it, (which would be the normal way so that plugging the second wire into the outlet would bypass the switch and turn the pump on), but it could also be the other way around. The switch has to be wired in series with the pump's "hot/black"" wire regardless of it having both black and white wires, and the pump's white neutral directly to the plug.

 

[Ballvalve]

Its pretty elmentary. The double male female plug is on most float switches. Power in goes into one side, and switches the black and maybe white wire both. The pump plugs into the female side and gets power when the switch is closed. Go to Graingers and see these floats. They make the system incredibly easy to set up if you know the "plan" of that double plug.

I believe that you plugged in the PUMP ONLY with your FIRST repair and caused the pump to run non stop until it died. Kept the tank nice and dry and likely pumped a bunch of crap into the leach field, and kept shutting of on overheat until death. You will likely need to pull the pump and replace the float and maybe pump too, and find a place to put the float switch instruction on that 4x4 so someone doesnt do it again. So your smokebomb was likely no big deal as it was all shot already.

When you are in the tank, investigate a bio-filter for the pump, or a good screen set up with alarm. If its from 1977 it was miraculous that it lasted so long. I would pump the tank too, and do it first as your project will be a lot cleaner. And dont stick your head in the tank, pass out and drop dead in a vat of &^%$ like so many have done.

To do it right, you'll need a pro and a wad of cash.

DIY: Close on rise switch with the double plug 35$, Zoeller pump $125 to 200$, pump tank 200 to 400$, 25$ for showers & new clothes. You could survive with the extension cord again for awhile by elevating it and wrapping it in rubber splicing tape, with a bucket over it. Add a 100$+++ if the pump is not in a screened chamber

Your burnt cord was not the rain anyway, it was the pumps last hurrah!

 

[bluinc]

Your answer is intriguing and full of info. Thank you!

I have worked on this all day, and here is the update.

Found and fixed the cut line going to the original outlet. (original electrician #1 wanted $1500 to run a new line causing me to say balderdash, hence the extension cord fix till I could find: Electrician #2, who had a 'pinger' found the cut, dug it up, spliced it, buried it, $100) Power is back up to the 110v outlet. Pulled off the concrete cover to the septic. The sewage is all the way up to ground level. I repaired the extension cord and plugged the pump in without the level switch. Nothing. Using an amp tester, its drawing no amps. I did a OHM check on the windings of the pump, it shows "open". I agree the pump is shot. Your theory of how the pump is shot is interesting - but I must confirm to you - the level switch was plugged into the extension cord, and the pump was plugged into the level switch. Not sure how the pump would have been made to run forever till burnout. But, there is little doubt that I need a new pump. Level switch seems fine - though I need a new piggyback plug to splice onto it - or I can just hardwire it in a separate enclosed box using jadnashuas drawing above. (thanks for that, by the way).


So i called around to get quotes on a new septic pump, installed. 600 to 800 is what I am hearing. Is that what you mean by Wad O Cash? Does everyone agree this is the norm? Looking at pumps olnine, they are only around 200 max for 1HP septic effluent pumps. So, these cats are going to get 400 to 600 in labor costs for a half day job?

Could you elaborate on your DIY option? Am I hearing I would have to go down INTO the tank? I cant just attach the new pump to a rope and drop it down and hover it to sit just above the sludge level? If climbing down into it is essential, wouldnt I need a scuba tank or some sort of breathing aparatus to breathe whith while down there?

What is a "pump tank?" for 200 to 400$ Screened chamber? Can you elaborate on these things? or point me to a good tutorial/primer on septic systems.

THank you!

 

[Jadnashua]

All septic tanks end up with some non- biodegradable crud buildup in them that can't, or at least shouldn't get pumped out into the leach fields. It's best to have the tank pumped out to remove all of that - then you can start with at least a fairly clean tank. They were saying literally pump (the) tank.

 

[bluinc]

All septic tanks end up with some non- biodegradable crud buildup in them that can't, or at least shouldn't get pumped out into the leach fields. It's best to have the tank pumped out to remove all of that - then you can start with at least a fairly clean tank. They were saying literally pump (the) tank.

Got it. Found a place that'll pump the tank for $175. They co
e tomorrow. In the meantime I bought a small 1/12th HP external pump and made a suction wand out of PVC to get the level down enough that we could at least take showers till they got here. This revealed something interesting. The concrete cylinder is like it's own independent unit. It's not even 6 feet down. Inside, hard piped in there is the pump and float system. I almost think I could powerwash this thing clean enough to see what's going on there and remove and replace the pump myself (I thought I'd find it to be some 10 foot deep box that one would have to spellunk down into with scuba gear or something)

So, anyone game for walking me through the process of r&r'ing a septic pump? I can post pictures if it would help show my exact configuration.

 

[Ballvalve]

I usually put the septic pump in the second chamber of the septic tank, but you have a second, independent pumping tank, which makes things a bit easier. Once you pump the main tank, you will have quite a while to work on the system if you conserve water. Replace the pump and switch - take a look at Ira woods for Zoeller pumps
at a good price. Orenco specializes in septic pumping systems, and make filter screens or chambers to set the pump within that wont let any solids into the leach lines. Its up to you to decide if that has a cost benefit ratio. You can buy a second float switch and set it high and have it turn on a light or bell on the post to let you know when some element failed.

So it looks like your pump was just drawing too many amps for a long while and possibly burned the first and second set of wires. Hose it out and replumb it as needed. Think about using flexible PVC [spa piping] and PVC unions to make it easy to pull the pump out.

Pictures would help

 

[NHmaster3015]

This thread is a perfect example of why some things should be left to professionals. Had an electrician or a plumber been called in the first place, a lot of money and time could have been saved.

 

[hj]

ALL pumps eventually die. IT was just time for yours to go. Depending on WHAT the pump is removing, (before or after the septic tank), a $175.00 pump may not be the correct one for it.

 

[Ballvalve]

This thread is a perfect example of why some things should be left to professionals. Had an electrician or a plumber been called in the first place, a lot of money and time could have been saved.

I think the pump died its own death, and now the guy will end up as a pro manager of his sewage if he keeps up the research.

Yes, should have asked what side of the tank the pump is on, but very typically on the outlet. If he is pumping the chamber with a electric drill or little rotary vane pump, he must be in the effluent, or outlet end of the tank, which we assume is adjacent to the septic tank [?] That pump wouldnt do much in turds and paper.

What I am wondering now is how the washing machine can be in the basement with out another pump, unless the outlet is watertight into the cleanout.

 

[bluinc]

Update 2: Underground tank is pumped and cleaned out. Separate cylinder pump tank (where the effluent pump is) also pumped out and cleaned up a bit.

 

[bluinc]

So, to me it seems, the easiest way to go is sawzall the pvc piece near the brass/iron(?) threaded end there, then pull the pump out, clean it and verify if the pump I bought (Zoeller M98 - $220 from a local B&M Plumbing supply) will work, then take the plumbing pieces and buy the same stuff, assemble, drop in and hook it back up to the threaded end? Does this sound right? Any advice/lessons learned you all can share?

 

[Ballvalve]

Yuk. I would attach flexible PVC pipe to the pump, up to a schd. 80 pvc union, and then a PVC checkvalve or a Zoeller checkvalve made for sewage. Dont use that swing valve type. And get all of the metal out of the plumbing in that tank.

Even if you use hard PVC pipe, make all the fittings in PVC, but the Zoeller CV is pretty long. [ and some are cast iron] A ball type PVC check valve might be better. Using flexible pvc gives you a lot of leeway for making room for the fittings. how high up are you pumping? Be sure the pump matches the head you have.

Get a new switch float too.

 

[bluinc]

Thank you ballvalve. What do you mean by get rid of the metal? Would you mind drafting up a rough sketch for a noob such as I. No picturing what you speak of. I googled each piece you recommended, but not able to visualize the assembly.

The leech field is probably 50 yards up a hill. Probably some pretty significant back pressure. Is the nameplate data on the old pump likely to be pretty straight forward to enable me to match it?

 

[Ballvalve]

Not computer fluent enough to give a sketch. Just do not use any metallic fittings at all in the pit. If your old pump gives you data on its curve or maximum head pressure, then match it. what is your elevation change, not the distance - thats what you need, I am sure its not 50 yards HIGHER than the pit.

Maybe try Graingers online, PVC ball check, sewerage check valves, Schedule 80 PVc unions - it will all come up with a lot of data. Flexible PVC usually comes up on SPA sites, but its very handy in many outdoor plumbing jobs. You glue it into fittings like hard pipe, but hose barbs work too.

 

[bluinc]

Not computer fluent enough to give a sketch. Just do not use any metallic fittings at all in the pit. If your old pump gives you data on its curve or maximum head pressure, then match it. what is your elevation change, not the distance - thats what you need, I am sure its not 50 yards HIGHER than the pit.

Maybe try Graingers online, PVC ball check, sewerage check valves, Schedule 80 PVc unions - it will all come up with a lot of data. Flexible PVC usually comes up on SPA sites, but its very handy in many outdoor plumbing jobs. You glue it into fittings like hard pipe, but hose barbs work too.

Its about 40 feet of elevation up on the hill.

I should trade you know-how on adding pictures for that sketch, though I would have the better deal
as adding pictures is very easy. (sketch picture in Word, MS paint, etc > save to desktop > if you have your own webste, click the little picture of a tree icon on the forum reply and point it to your website page that has the image. If you dont have a website > click 'upload photo' > select image on desktop, photo uploads to server > select the image in that photo account > copy (ctrl-C) its 'IMG code' > paste that "IMG code" into the text field of your forum reply.) voila. Forum will display the image on the server you pointed it to.

 

[Ballvalve]

Sounds like re-piping that tanks is easier than moving the photo around.... OK- with 40 feet of head you need a pretty specific and expensive pump. Many cut off at 10 to 25 feet. You have to add in some height for friction also, so watch the pumps chart carefully before buying.

Take a look at a starite S.t.e.p pump, its made for cisterns, but would need to be in screened chamber. It should do the head easy for only $259 - its a submersible. Never used it but looks like a nice design and very cost efficient.

When that was installed, its was likely hard to find any good PVC checkvalves and unions.