Pipes Vibrating So Bad that it Sounds Like an Old Motel Bed Vibrator!

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RogerPDX

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My dad is having a recent problem with his plumbing in his mid 70's home.

Recently, the pipes have started to vibrate occasionally - not at any specific time.
The first few times happened about 10:30 / 11:00pm, but since then, it is sporadic.
The sound resonates through the floor and walls to the extent that it could wake you up!
(I actually thought he had installed one of those 25¢ bed massagers that you use to see
in cheap motels!)

When I went to his shower and turned on the water, the noise went down 80%, and
back up when I shut off the water. After doing this 3 or 4 times, the vibrating finally stopped.

Originally I thought it must be a faulty PRV, but I can not locate one in his house, under his house
or in the ground where the water line comes into his crawl space nor at the meter.

I put a pressure gauge on his front hose at 10:00am - it read 83lbs.

He turned on the kitchen cold water and the pressure went down to 53lbs.

Does anybody have input that could help me solve this mystery?
 

FullySprinklered

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Your pressure is on the high side of what's acceptable hereabouts, but just slightly. Water doesn't make that noise just sitting there, so I tend to think something is dribbling somewhere. Check the outside faucets, T/P valve on the waterheater, any and everything that might need maintenance or could have a loose washer or defective vacuum breaker attached. Then fix it.
 

Reach4

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I suspect there is a PRV that you did not yet find, especially if turning a faucet on to a low flow brings the pressure from 83 to 53.

Do you find a pressure tank?
 

RogerPDX

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I suspect there is a PRV that you did not yet find, especially if turning a faucet on to a low flow brings the pressure from 83 to 53.

Do you find a pressure tank?

I dug at the meter and at the foundation, where the main goes into
the foundation, then into the crawl space. No PRV. There was a shut off
valve (faucet handle) on the main at the foundation, but no PRV.

On the crawl space side of the foundation, I found the main coming in, but
no PRV.

Could they have buried it somewhere between the street and this area
where it goes into the crawl space? Seems strange they would cover it
with dirt.
 

RogerPDX

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Your pressure is on the high side of what's acceptable hereabouts, but just slightly. Water doesn't make that noise just sitting there, so I tend to think something is dribbling somewhere. Check the outside faucets, T/P valve on the waterheater, any and everything that might need maintenance or could have a loose washer or defective vacuum breaker attached. Then fix it.

He had a leaky toilet, and I fixed it. I checked the 2nd toilet for leaks and there was no dye
making it's way from tank to bowl, so I guess it is not leaking either.

T/P on water heater is fine, and no faucets leak.

What about an underground sprinkler system... if there was a leak in it, could it make
the house pipes vibrate? Why would a leak make them vibrate?
 

Terry

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Tell me please - what would make a toilet do this?

Toilet
If you have a leaky flapper in the toilet, it will refill every so often.
For that to vibrate, something needs to be a bit loose.
Sometimes it's the shutoff at the wall with a bad washer. I like to open that shutoff all the way, and with a multi-turn valve, back it in a bit.
It could also be a bad fill valve when it refills.

Ice Maker
If the ice cube maker is refilling, it can make noises. I install with a hammer arrestor to soften the closing of the valve. Without the hammer arrestor, it bangs off and can shake the pipes.
 

RogerPDX

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I forgot to mention - this vibration is a NEW thing...

Frankly, my money has been on a faulty PRV. Does anybody
know "where" a PRV is typically installed? I have always seen them
on the inside basement or crawl space wall - opposite the main
water line. It that "the" typical place, or do you see them elsewhere?
 

Jadnashua

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If you have a PRV, it generally is after the water meter and main shutoff valve. If you do have one, you should also have an expansion tank.

But, a toilet fill valve is probably the more common thing to cause that noise at random, and that is generally caused by a leaking flapper valve causing the fill valve to open to refill the tank. SOme designs are more prone to this than others.
 

RogerPDX

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If you have a PRV, it generally is after the water meter and main shutoff valve. If you do have one, you should also have an expansion tank.

But, a toilet fill valve is probably the more common thing to cause that noise at random, and that is generally caused by a leaking flapper valve causing the fill valve to open to refill the tank. SOme designs are more prone to this than others.


My dad 'had' a leaky flow valve (flapper) a few weeks ago. That made a 'refilling' loud noise,
but the issue was solved with a new flapper.

Tonight he put red food coloring into both toilet tanks for an hour - no leaks.

The city came out and doug up the earth on the house side of their meter - no PRV in
the place where they 'normally' find them.

The noise I am originally asking about is MUCH louder than the toilet noise was.

MUCH.

And it made the floor vibrate. I thought it was an electrical motor bound up, but after
turning off all the breakers (main breaker too) the noise was still going strong. Only
after reliving the water in the shower did the noise eventually stop.
 

RogerPDX

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Your pressure is on the high side of what's acceptable hereabouts, but just slightly. Water doesn't make that noise just sitting there, so I tend to think something is dribbling somewhere. Check the outside faucets, T/P valve on the waterheater, any and everything that might need maintenance or could have a loose washer or defective vacuum breaker attached. Then fix it.


I don't think he has a drip anyplace, but if he did - why would a drip make such a loud, vibration that lasts for a few minutes? When this noise happens, it just happens - nobody is doing anything (reading a book maybe - but no water is being used).

The city was working on a fire hydrant 1/2 block away... does that come into play perhaps?
 

Terry

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"The city was working on a fire hydrant 1/2 block away... does that come into play perhaps?"

It can, depending on what they were doing with it.
I had one job where the neighors were affecting them. I had to install some flexible piping and a hammer arrestor to prevent the PRV from making noise when their neigbors turned a faucet on and off.
 

RogerPDX

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Terry,
I was at a friends home in Seattle and noticed they have a little copper riser on each faucet going to their washing machine. They said they keep the pipes from hammering when the washer is using water.

They looked like they re made in a factory (not improvised on the spot).

What are they called, where does one get them and why are they used on the washing machine vs under a sink, etc?
 

WJcandee

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It's a hammer arrestor. It's what Terry was talking about.

index.php
 
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Terry

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icemaker_box.jpg


And here is one for the icemaker.

I install these on:
Dishwasher
Washer
Icemaker

You you have a "closed" system, they are required. A home may have been built open, but often the water meters are changed out with check valve models. When this happens, water hammer becomes an issue.
 

RogerPDX

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I wouldn't know if he has a closed system or not. Are they ok to install (not hurt anything) to see if it does the trick?

BTW... He's lived there for 10 years and this noise problem has never happened.
It just started recently (when they were working on the fire hydrant). The City
said the hydrant repair would not have caused any problem, etc.
 

RogerPDX

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Thanks for the help. The photos of the copper water hammer arrestor is what I saw at my friends.

I just talked with my dad and here's the latest.....

Remember the vibration seems to be coming under the floor (pipes) between his guest bathroom and his laundry closet. These two areas are close together - separated only by a 4' or 5' hallway.

He says that he turns the water off on his laundry faucets, after use, because "occasionally" water will drip into his washing machine. This seems odd to me.

Thursday evening, he took Terry's advice and turned the handles under the guest bath sink and the toilet about 1/4 turn inward. Since then - no unexpected noise.

He also added red dye to the tank.

This morning I had him check the red dye - none had leaked.
He then flushed the toilet (he never uses that bathroom) and the under the floor vibrating noise started again!
He then turned off the inlet valve to the toilet and the noise stopped.

He waited 5 minutes and opened the inlet valve again - and there was no noise.
The tank filled.

He flushed again, and the vibration started when the tank was filling.

What does this mean?

BTW - He has 2 exact same toilets in his house, both installed at the same time 8 - 10 years ago. The guest toilet fills a lot slower than the other toilet.
 
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