Newbie with well casing issue, 5 inch PVC???

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Mr. Breeze

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Hello fellas, newbie homeowner here with an odd issue. I am in need of a well seal for a 2 line jet pump set up, standard 1&1/4 and 1 inch drops....simple enough right? Well, my casing is 5 inch??????? Has a 5 inch id, 5.5 inch od, schedule 40 pvc well casing is wrote on the side of the pipe. 5 inch? I cant even find 5 inch pipe let alone a well seal for it, plenty of 4 and 6 inch seals everywhere, but I cannot for the life of me locate a 5in seal at all.

Was 5 in pipe typical in years past or what? Unfortunately this well is not documented on my states records, so I have no info on it other than my own personal depth measurements and such. well is 65 ft deep with water at 39 ft. But 5 inch pipe?

And to make matters worse, the house that uses this well is 560 ft away up hill, 30ft of grade, the well is a 1/2 horse 2 line jet pump, that also has another 1/2 horse booster pump inline near the home, has a pressure tank next to each pump. Never really had any issues believe it or not, but the main pump just burnt up a bearing, so im in the process of replacing the pump, and I want to do a well seal also while its down because the current one is in pretty bad shape, like really bad shape. But this 5 inch pipe has me stumped! Any info is very much appreciated.

P.S. thanks for having me, forum seems to be full of a wealth of knowledge, I look forward to BSing around in here!
 

ThirdGenPump

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5 inch wells pretty much don't exist where I am nor are wells cased with pvc, but 5 inch pcv wells are still installed in different parts of the country. The seals exist and the caps exist, check somewhere local, online sales for even some of the most common well related items are hit or miss.

I'd look into replacing both pumps with a single submersible rather than replacing a deep well jet.
 

Reach4

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I presume freezing is not a problem where you are. Otherwise you would not want to be using a well seal.


but I cannot for the life of me locate a 5in seal at all.

http://www.deanbennett.com/well-seals-n-well-caps.htm here is what you are asking for:
50CIDHA 5" cast iron double hole well seal for use with 5" ID well casing for jet pump deep well installation. Stocked 1-1/4" x 1" size. Split seal.​

This is a mfg page: https://www.merrillmfg.com/product/order-numbers-cast-iron-well-seals Searching on
WS522510 identifies a supplier who may sell to you or somebody you work with.

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Parts20-5-in-2-Pipe-Well-Seal-FP216-93/100143417

http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Campbell-SUB5x1-5-x1-Cast-Iron-Sub-Submersible-Well-Seal-/262568857241

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Campbell-SUB5x1-5-x1-Cast-Iron-Sub-Submersible-Well-Seal-/331933463710


Better yet, do as ThirdGenPump suggests. With a 5 inch casing, a 1/2 HP submersible will be very nice... as much or more water than a 1 HP jet pump. Quieter. No priming.
 

Texas Wellman

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Simmons makes one...
http://www.simmonsmfg.com/index.php/our-products/well-seals/well-seal-double-drop-pipe-split-top/

ThirdGenPump: All our wells are PVC. 5" is common on public supply wells (engineer specified). My understanding is that Michigan only allows 5" PVC, no 4" PVC wells.

+1 on the 1/2 HP sub and eliminate the booster pump. As a side thought the jet pump might be using a section of tail pipe under the jet to counteract a slow producing well. A sub may be able to over-pump the well whereas the jet pump cannot.
 

Valveman

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5 is our most common size here. But no 2 hole well seals as we only use subs. Subs are better. Use a Cycle Sensor if there is a chance of pumping the well dry.
 

Texas Wellman

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We are blessed with high static water levels and high yield wells. A 2" well that only made 10 gpm would almost be considered a dry hole.
 

Mr. Breeze

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Simmons makes one...
http://www.simmonsmfg.com/index.php/our-products/well-seals/well-seal-double-drop-pipe-split-top/

ThirdGenPump: All our wells are PVC. 5" is common on public supply wells (engineer specified). My understanding is that Michigan only allows 5" PVC, no 4" PVC wells.

+1 on the 1/2 HP sub and eliminate the booster pump. As a side thought the jet pump might be using a section of tail pipe under the jet to counteract a slow producing well. A sub may be able to over-pump the well whereas the jet pump cannot.

Appreciate the responses fellas. Wellman, I spoke with a well guy here and his exact response was, why the hell didnt they do a half horse sub....and then he came up with the same conclusion, thats its possible they went with the jets because its a low producing well.

However, im still not sold on the jet pumps, I would love to eliminate this crappy dual jet setup sometime in the future, I have already bought another cheep tractor supply jet pump to replace my bad bearing pump, and will get it hooked up and see how quick this well recovers after I get it all back together, I figured that will kinda determine if I go with a sub or not.

I was hoping to find a 5 inch seal local, like in the home depots or anywhere really, but NOBODY has them in stock, obviously I need the well going asap.. The link someone posted above to the home depot one has been discontinued. Either im gonna order one from say simmons, or I will disassemble and perhaps rebuild the one I have, the seals may still be usable, but the bolts are no good, if I can bust the bolts apart I will split it and rebuild it if possible.

Ive never even see 5 inch pvc, be nice if I could fine a 6" to 5" schedule 40 reducer, id just glue on a reducer, because Ive got all the 6" seals in the world around town lol..

Thanks fellas, im in western oklahoma btw.
 

Reach4

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Thanks fellas, im in western oklahoma btw.
So freezing would be a problem with a well seal, unless you have a pit or a well house. A pit is a problem for well contamination. A well house has to be heated.

For a submersible, you can have a gadget that shuts the pump down for a while if you run out of water.

A 5-inch casing stores about a gallon of water per foot.
 
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Mr. Breeze

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So freezing would be a problem with a well seal, unless you have a pit or a well house. A pit is a problem for well contamination. A well house has to be heated.

For a submersible, you can have a gadget that shuts the pump down for a while if you run out of water.

A 5-inch casing stores about a gallon of water per foot.
yes, freezing is a problem, I have build very nice insulated "pump houses" around both pumps, nothing has ever froze yet, but when it dips below the 20* mark outside I will turn a heat lamp on in them just for security.
 

Mr. Breeze

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So now im kinda in a pickle, I need to pull this well seal off without pulling the pipes, rebuild it and reinstall it! Somehow ive got to hold these 2 pipes up without dropping them down the well. Currently the only thing holding them from falling in the well is a couple glued elbows above the well seal.

The reason for rebuilding the well seal is the pipes have fell down inside the seal to the elbows, with the bolts being as bad as they are I can pull the pipes back up through the seal, but I cannot tighten the seal so that it grips the pipes and the pipes dont fall down again.

I need a way to hold these pipes up! Man power can do it, but will get very tiresome eventually lol, is there a better way here?????
 

Reach4

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You might post a photo.

With a well seal, it is not normal to have the well seal hold the pipe by gripping. Instead a fitting connected to the pipes sits against the well seal and carries the weight of the pipes.

Here is somebody who used worm gear clamps. Hokey, but easy.
blogger-image-630961174.jpg


If you do get a submersible, you might get a pitless adapter. The casing sticks up, and the wires go over the top, but the water stays below the frost line.

A professional could probably get this all done in a day.
 

Mr. Breeze

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give me a bit ill get u a pic. Like I said, it literally has the elbows holding the piping from falling into the well, just like your worm clamps holding it, only mine has elbows. I figured if I could tighten the bolts, the well seal would grip the pipes from falling rather than the elbows. Seems like there would be a much better way to hold these pipes from falling in, other than an elbow, worm clamp, or compressed seal!
 

Reach4

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give me a bit ill get u a pic. Like I said, it literally has the elbows holding the piping from falling into the well, just like your worm clamps holding it, only mine has elbows. I figured if I could tighten the bolts, the well seal would grip the pipes from falling rather than the elbows. Seems like there would be a much better way to hold these pipes from falling in, other than an elbow, worm clamp, or compressed seal!
How about strong ratchet strap lifting the elbows, held up by a Little Giant or similar ladder made into a stable "A" configuration. I am not a pro.
classic-small.jpg
 

Mr. Breeze

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ive got to cut these elbows off to slide the seal off and back on, it is not a split seal, its a 1 piece! Working on pics now..
 

Mr. Breeze

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as you can see, the well seal is not down in the pipe at all, it never was and has been just sitting on top of the pvc for years apparently, as well as the elbows have fell down and are literally what is holding the pipes from falling in the well, , I can pick the whole assembly up, its heavy but doable, I need to pick it up, while someone cuts the pipes and slides the seal up and off, find a way to support the pipes so that I dont have to hold them, and go rebuild or replace the seal. Was thinking about gluing some tee's on the pipes temporarily so I can let them rest on the casing while i figure out the seal situation, just didnt know if there was perhaps a better way of supporting those 2 pipes for a bit..
 

Reach4

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as you can see, the well seal is not down in the pipe at all, it never was and has been just sitting on top of the pvc for years apparently, as well as the elbows have fell down and are literally what is holding the pipes from falling in the well,

Seems to me that a 6 inch seal that you could buy locally could sit on top of the casing as well as a 5 inch seal could. Since your casing is extended above ground, a waterproof seal is not really required.

But it is normal to have elbows or other fittings holding the pipe... but glued fittings are not the norm, and you cannot thread schedule 40 PVC and have strength. Glued PVC is not normal for good practices for wells. Instead, threaded schedule 80 with couplers is the norm for PVC for wells.

If you are going to use glue, give it a lot of extra time to set. People have had newly glued joints let go.

Also, the deal with a split seal is that they can be installed around existing pipes. The rubber gets cut to go around the pipes, and the rubber gets squished together when the bolts are tightened. Of course the rubber is normally inside the casing when the bolts are tightened. I was thinking that the split bottoms and tops would have their splits at 90 degrees to each other. Looking around seems to say that is not the norm. It is how I would do it, as long as the plates are symmetric.

I think you are worried about your bolts rusting through and allowing the bottom plate to drop and get wedged into the casing. Suppose you left your current well seal around the pipes, lifted the assembly, and put a split seal below the untrusted seal? That could maybe hold you until you get that submersible. Just thinking.
 
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Mr. Breeze

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so is the compressed seal not responsible for holding the pipe up and off of the seal? It seems if I could tighten the seal bolts it would compress around the pipes hard enough to allow me to have say a foot of pipe extending up out of the seal. As a matter of fact, the instructions in the box for the new pump say I should allow a foot or so of pipe off the top of the seal before I elbow back to the pump. Just seems there should be a better way of supporting these pipes than with a glued and/or a threaded elbow!!
 
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