Jobs done, stacks in; but ripped?

[chipy]

Hi again,

I posted about a week ago and had a rusted stack removed and replaced with PVC. Though i believe i was overcharged. Do you think there is 250$ worth of fittings (from the no hub at the top and the other at the left, one big tee shape, with a 2 inch going up to the kitchen)?

Also, they leaded/melted the pvc with lead to fill the joint. I've never seen this bonding technique and it doesn't seem like its smart. Edit: My reasoning: although it will initially produce a tight fit, there is nothing there when the pvc contracts/expands.

 

[Reach4]

Look up the fittings and add those up. How about the banded couplers. Included? Then multiply by maybe 1.5 to 2.0 for markup and handling. How does that compare to what you paid for fittings? Don't forget sales tax. I expect you did not overpay.

Attaching the PVC to the cast iron with lead is a very good way to do that. Looks like nice work. I don't see the hangers in the photo, but I presume there are a couple.

I am not a plumber.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[chipy]

2x tee hub hub hub - $6.93 - $13.86 http://www.homedepot.com/p/NIBCO-4-in-PVC-DWV-Hub-x-Hub-x-Hub-Sanitary-Tee-C4811HD4/100343303
Soil pipe adapter - $6.38 http://www.homedepot.com/p/NIBCO-3-...Drain-Soil-Pipe-Adapter-C4800SDHD34/100347880
20ft 4" pvc - $17.57 - $35.14 http://www.homedepot.com/p/Unbranded-4-in-x-10-ft-PVC-Sch-40-DWV-Plain-End-Pipe-531103/100156409
a few 2" couplings and pipe - maybe $30 worth (~3ft)
2x 4" no hub couplings- $10.69 - $21.38 http://www.homedepot.com/p/Fernco-4-in-EPDM-Rubber-Shielded-Coupling-PHD-44/100187576
edit: 2x cleanouts - $11.45 - $22.9 http://www.homedepot.com/p/NIBCO-4-in-PVC-DWV-H-x-H-x-FPT-Cleanout-Plug-Tee-C4814HD4/205799561

13.86+6.38+35.14+30+21.39+22.9 = 129.67 + 9% = $141

Does it really make sense to markup? Haven't plumbers established the cheapest supply (cheaper than retail)?

Edit: actual prices. Good point reach4.

 

[chipy]

Also, i was charged a "service call (includes 1st half hour)" fee, but was not informed of this charge before.. Is this common practice?

 

[Reach4]

20ft 4" pvc - 10$?

See http://www.homedepot.com/p/Unbranded-4-in-x-10-ft-PVC-Sch-40-DWV-Plain-End-Pipe-531103/100156409

 

[chipy]

EDIT the total material cost on my work order is $250. The first 200$ was for pvc alone. I was charged 45$ for the no hub, 5$ for the lead (which was mine to begin with), and maybe they provided a small bit of oakum.

Reach4: yes there is one hanger on the left, and one saddled underneath the cottage fitting.

 

[chipy]

Total job took 3 hours.

Line items are:
$110 - service call
$270 - 3hrs at $90
$120 - 3hrs at $40
$250 - material (200$ plastic pipe and fittings, 45$ no hub, 5$ lead an oakum)

Total - 750$

This is about 225$ from my best estimate, 100$ from my average, and 100$ from his original ($650). He even accomplished the job faster than estimated (4 hours).

Angies list shows (Free Estimates: Yes)... is the service call the estimate?

 

[Reach4]

This is about 225$ from my best estimate, 100$ from my average, and 100$ from his original ($650). He even accomplished the job faster than estimated (4 hours).

Where did the $650 number come from?

Angies list shows (Free Estimates: Yes)... is the service call the estimate?

I don't understand estimates myself. It seems to me that if you are to pay higher than the estimate, he should be able to show how the job done differed from the job that the estimate envisioned. Are estimates normally low ball numbers to get you to agree, and then always get jacked up at bill presentment time? I don't know. I would hope not.

I infer that you referenced Angie's list before hiring this guy/company. By the way, is this a big company or an independent? When you left your review on Angie's list, did it show up? I had the impression that the people listed on Angies list paid to get better reviews to show up.

 

[chipy]

Where did the $650 number come from?

650$ was his original estimate. 550 labor, 100 parts.

I infer that you referenced Angie's list before hiring this guy/company. By the way, is this a big company or an independent? When you left your review on Angie's list, did it show up? I had the impression that the people listed on Angies list paid to get better reviews to show up.

Small company; maybe 3-4 guys Not an Angies list member so I'm not sure; but I cross reference with angies/yelp/etc.

 

[Craigpump]

Were you given an an "estimate" or a "quote"? An estimate is just that, a quote is a firm price.

 

[Reach4]

Were you given an an "estimate" or a "quote"? An estimate is just that, a quote is a firm price.

What then is an estimate?

Suppose you are given an estimate of $500 and a bill of $ 600 or $1000. What is your reaction?

 

[Cacher_Chick]

You guys are picking at straws. The price is whatever the contractor decides the job is worth. Parts markup 2-3x cost for small stuff is the norm. Looks like they did good work. It's time to move on.

 

[Reach4]

You guys are picking at straws. The price is whatever the contractor decides the job is worth. Parts markup 2-3x cost for small stuff is the norm. Looks like they did good work. It's time to move on.

What picking at straws did I do?

Why not decide the the job was worth $1500 after giving a $650 estimate?

 

[Terry]

And this is why I don't break out parts. You can spend hours looking up prices for all the fittings, and then you forget to write a bunch of them down and wind up paying the customer to work on their home.
I did one job for an engineer, plumpbed his entire home, parts and labor. He didn't want to pay me for the parts I had on the van. He thought my inventory should have been free.

Most contractos look at a job and decide what it's worth to them to spend time on it. Yes, travel is included. We're bring everything out to the job with us. The manpower, the tools, and the parts. And at the end of the job, hauling junk away and making dump runs. Just because you've cut the check, that doesn't mean we're done working for you. We still need to put away tools, dump you old pipe and fittings, and then do the books for the IRS, the State, and the local. Lots of fun.

 

[Reach4]

And this is why I don't break out parts. You can spend hours looking up prices for all the fittings, and then you forget to write a bunch of them down and wind up paying the customer to work on their home.

I expect that if you give an estimate, you will explain why your bill differed from the estimate, other than to say you think it is worth more than you estimated. Maybe there was a pipe that was found to be damaged in a way that was not apparent at the time of the estimate.

If you don't break out parts, do you have to charge sales tax on the whole job? Maybe you have a services tax that is roughly the same as the sales tax rate, but in most places I think services are not taxed and parts are.

 

[Terry]

In Washington State, sales tax is computed on where it's delivered. That includes parts and labor.

Most of my jobs are right on the estimate, however sometimes while working you come across parts of the existing plumbing that need changing that nobody has looked at before. You don't know until you're there working on it.

Sometimes on water heaters, the water shutoff doesn't work. Does the homeowner want a "working" shutoff while I'm there?
Toilet installs have hidden problems sometimes that you don't see until you lift the old toilet up. Stuff needs doing sometimes.

 

[Craigpump]

Reach,

That's why I request a QUOTE, not an estimate.

An ESTIMATE is just that, an estimated price. We are in the trades where there are variables, we're not selling cans of tuna fish or bags of potato chips out of a grocery store.

What if the job took the guy all day instead of a few hours? Would you be willing to pay more because it took longer?

 

[WJcandee]

You got all that done, apparently-quite-well, by two guys in CHICAGO for $750 parts and labor?

Count your blessings that it was done right and move on.

 

[Reach4]

That's why I request a QUOTE, not an estimate.

An ESTIMATE is just that, an estimated price. We are in the trades where there are variables, we're not selling cans of tuna fish or bags of potato chips out of a grocery store.

What if the job took the guy all day instead of a few hours? Would you be willing to pay more because it took longer?

It depends. It doesn't seem right to pay less for a well tuned team to do a job than for a less skilled team that takes longer. On the other hand, I guess it would be reasonable to pay more if a surprise vein of granite is discovered while drilling, or the existing sewer pipe that you expected to connect to was Orangeburg instead of the expected PVC that was common to the area.

I appreciate the advice to ask for a quote rather than an estimate. If the quote includes the covering some unknown factors, I can see the quote being reasonably higher than an estimate. I expect there are some contractors who intentionally provide lowball estimates and always present a higher bill -- even if the work required was the same as would be reasonably expected. Others are going to play it straight.

So quote or estimate, it seems to me that a higher bill should be justified by what was different. When I got my well pit demolished, there was an estimate of $15xx. Estimate even included the Merrill SMCK pitless. Bill was $22xx. I asked what was different from the job that the estimate was for. We agreed on $18xx after some discussion. Low key civil discussion. While it did not come up in that discussion, they did change out the PVC couplings for stainless. That would be a good answer as to at least part what was different from what was in the estimate.

The 2 man crew finished in about 4.5 hours. They had done a morning job. I expected it would take a whole day. Did I think they should get less for being super efficient? Heck, no. I feel I got quality work. Really nice skill on a surprisingly big backhoe. I stayed out of the way, but it was interesting watching from inside. I did step out for photos a couple of times.

Thinking this through beforehand is good. It should not be like a hospital bill where surprises abound. I tend to think that well people tend to be a pretty honest lot compared to many. Understanding the situation beforehand is fair.

 

[WJcandee]

I don't mind if a mechanic/plumber/electrician marks parts up a reasonable amount; there are costs to obtaining/maintaining inventory.

That said, when someone doesn't do that, it impresses the heck out of me.

Our landscaper redid a little garden of rocks and plants last year. We agreed on an estimated budget for it, including plants (annuals and perrenials) and labor, and I left it to him to pick the flowers and plants to include in the proposal, because he seems to know what he is doing. He did a really nice job. When it came time to give me the bill, he mentioned that the plants had cost a little less than he expected, so he had added several more, and gave me the receipt from the nursery. He hadn't marked them up a cent.

Guess who got to do the job again this year?