Is there a class action lawsuit against Kitec piping?

Discussion in 'Plumbing Forum, Professional & DIY Advice' started by ultimachi, Aug 26, 2006.

  1. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    Steve, it's all due to your superb smarts.

    Along that topic, quarterly is three months, not monthly.

    So you don't own and/or operate, you just admin and moderate.... and pretend to be imporant. LOL The fact is that you set up a new forum and there has been not one post by anyone but you (admin).
    http://stemdoctor.com/cs/forums/thread/57.aspx

    I think you pretend to be a service plumber too but at least you don't call yourself a Master plumber like you used to. It's guys like you that give plumbing a bad rap. Here's a sample of your plumbing and it took you FIVE HOURS!!! You owe those people a refund. Use the Next and Prev buttons to see all of it.
    http://tinyurl.com/zrym3
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2007
  2. Uh, I really wish

    you would quit bringing up my hooked on phonics education. Shame on you~!

    Thanks for putting that filter system picture up, I get a lot of site traffic when you do that. That was a hard job too since the customer had me installing that filter to a tee by the mfg. specs. He called them 4 times throughout the job.....part of the reason it took so long.

    He even went as far as having a $500 high powered microscope taking samples of the outgoing water from the filter when I prewashed (mfg. specs) initially to remove debri.

    I added some bells and whistles (valves and drains) so he could backwash that system as per required by the mfg.

    Since you make me feel so warm and tingly with our ongoing love/hate relationship online,

    I added some more pictures of water treatment installations. Please be my hunk of burning love hairy chest online inspector would you? :)
  3. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    I'm glad to help. You know, you don't see all the help I've been giving you and if you became a bit better listener and got rid of the attitude, I know you'd pick right up on it.

    I see you wiped your joints on that filter install, they look simply marvelous.
  4. Plumb or Die

    Plumb or Die Plumbing Instructor

    Messages:
    38
    Location:
    Southern BC Canada
    What a nightmare!

    You seem to have a bunch of people dicking you around, and hoping you will just go away and eat all this expense yourself. You're problems are due to an improper install of a perfectly good piping product. I assume the plumbers that came over were hired by your insurance person or your realtor. Get a licenced plumbing contractor over to check this stuff out. A properly worded letter from him describing the improper installation will go a long way in court should you go down that road. And it will certainly get your insurane people or whoever to take notice. Don't take this laying down.
    I personally helped out a fellow with a problem with a plumbing contractor that froze and burst a bunch of slab heating pipes. The letter I wrote for him helped out a lot when he sued the plumber for negligence. He had to jackhammer out and replace the whole slab in a 2000 sq/ft rancher he was building. Get the sleezebags!
  5. PLC

    PLC New Member

    Messages:
    1
    Kitec Lawsuit

    I can vouch for the fact that there is a class action lawsuit against Clark County plumbers, IPEX, KITEC, etc. Copies of the suit are posted at "www.plumbingdefect.com", where you can sign up for an inspection by the law firm. At this site there is also information which will allow you to determine whether or not your house has KITEC fittings. Ours apparently does.

    We have had a preliminary inspection and accepted an offer by Pulte to replumb the house. We are on the waiting list to get replumbed. It remains to be see whether that was a wise decision, but the alternative of waiting to see if the fittings ruptured is too much of a gamble.
  6. If you type in the words

    PEX
    LAWSUITS
    MTBE
    KITEC

    These threads are showing up in all the search engines....pulling discussions from web forums like these and others with all the lawsuits of these products coming to light. That is why this thread is generating new members of those "chiming in" to give info to others of what is going on. :teamwork: :thumbsup:

    Back in 2005 I commented on this site about the "train wreck coming"...

    The forums I've moderated over the years are showing that this product is making its way into peoples homes in leaps and bounds.

    Those who are cheerleaders of these plastic piping systems:


    What do you say to the victims of these different brands of PEX that are failing?

    Don't talk about copper pinhole stories, talk about the facts......the subject of plastic pipe failures.

    It's turning into property damage, insurance rate increases, people losing their homes to this stuff because "it's fast and easy" and you can make more money.

    There are so many brands/styles/flavors of PEX that when someone gloats about a certain kind.....how do you expect the average homeowner going to buy a home what to look out for?

    PEX LAWSUITS is becoming a popular search engine word phrase these days thanks to the failures associated with the fittings and pipe.

    Isn't it true that Europe doesn't use chlorine levels similar to ours in the USA and THAT is the reason for some of the problems tied to this piping?

    This thread alone is making some waves in the www so if you are going to defend its quality...

    speak up and explain to all these homeowners (victims) why they should eat a hamburger from mcdonalds,

    but definitely not a hamburger from wendy's.



    http://www.lieffcabraser.com/hydronic-pipes.htm

    http://contractormag.com/articles/newsarticle.cfm?newsid=221

    http://www.forbestlaw.com/articles/kitec-pipe-defects.html

    http://www.kirotv.com/money/1954263/detail.html

    http://www.accessmylibrary.com/comsite5/bin/pdinventory.pl?pdlanding=1&referid=2930&purchase_type=ITM&item_id=0286-22861792




    In the mind of many, a hamburger is a hamburger and until one makes you sick, you just keep on eating them. < vegetarians need not to reply to this. ;)
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2007
  7. mickeymouse1205

    mickeymouse1205 New Member

    Messages:
    1
    ?????

    Okay, need opinions.According to Pulte and the Attorneys, Pulte is offering to replace the fittings and repipe the whole house, can be up to a 2 year waiting list for this mind you. The class action law suit is offering you have your options of 1) a 7800.00 check and get your own contractor and Pulte is no longer liable from there on out or 2) Pulte will put you on their 2 yr (so far) list and they will do the repairs.Here is what concerns me, 1st if you go with Pulte and no damage has been done yet it sure the heck may within the 2 years and what a nightmare that could be 2) almost every NV state plumbing contractor I've contacted said the cost total of repiping, new fittings, re sheet-rocking, paint, some people will need stucco repair etc is over the 7800 the lawsuit is willing to give you.(Apparently the judge ruled the fittings are the defect and the there is no need for any repiping) You also have to remember everyone does not have the same model house, some have 2 baths, 3 baths 4 baths, some have island kitchen with sinks, etc. What a mess. Also in order to recieve any help you need to have someone come over, cut a hole and take a picture of the KITECH in your house. The sticker in the electrical panel is not good enough What would you do, with these options??????
  8. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    Personally I feel bad for anyone with water damage etc. from leaking water lines. But getting emotional isn't going to solve anything and usually causes more problems. The fact is that in this thread, the pictures do not show failed tubing/pipe, they show failed fittings; there is nothing wrong with the tubing.

    Also, I believe the AL type PEX is not to be used for potable water lines, it is for hydronic heating. Potable water lines do not need/require an oxygen barrier or whatever the barrier is for. So in reality, the plumbers/builders etc. may have specked the wrong material, which caused the corrosion to cause the brass fittings to fail. All of which has nothing to do with the material.

    Did you know there are three separate manufacturing processes used to make PEX? They all relate to differences in the finished product, so lumping them together is incorrect.

    Another fact is that copper, galvanized, CPVC, PVC etc., including SS, all have problems/disadvantages; there is no perfect potable water line material but... overall, studying actual research rather than listening to gossip shows that you can't beat plastics.

    MTBE? That happens to be a gasoline additive, I think you have a typo or are confusing it with something else.
  9. Rancher

    Rancher Guest

    Gary, Soooo... this begs the question, when I plumb my next slab with PEX-AL-PEX what do I use for connectors? And bear in mind that my last slab was plumbed with PB, with no problems after 12 years.

    Rancher
  10. PEX alone, or Pex-AL-Pex?

    permit me to ask whether this thing in Nevada is about PEX pipe or Pex-AL-Pex pipe.

    Although i might be able to answer this myself, with enough searching, i'm posting my query here.

    david
  11. Rancher

    Rancher Guest

    I believe it's about the connectors failing, I haven't seen the reason why, Gary is guessing corrision due to dis-similar metals.

    Rancher
  12. Phil H2

    Phil H2 New Member

    Messages:
    125
    Location:
    Tujunga, CA
    The website for the lawsuit claims dezincification is the cause of the fitting failure. It seems like a lab could easily determine the brass alloy used in the suspect fittings and tell if it is prone to dezincification. I wonder if the contact with copper pipe accelerates dezincification. By the way, dezincifation happens in brass alloys with a high zinc content and a low copper content. The zinc leaches from the alloy leaving a weak copper skeleton.

    As far as MTBE, there are claims that some PEX has problems leaching MTBE and TBA which are by-products of the manufacturing process.
  13. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    Nah Rancher, actually I've read every word in all the posts in this entire thread, so no guessing on my part. :)

    It is Pex-AL-Pex used to plumb the house (Post #23 ON PAGE 2). The fittings are brass insert x threaded. The failure is supposed to be dissimilar metals corrosion between the aluminium and brass but, there may be a misformulation of the brass (too much zinc someone said), causing the insert end of the fitting to break off the rest of the fitting.

    IMO the break might be due to stress on the tubing connection and/or no support of the tubing. IOWs the break may not have happened as soon if ever as it did had only corrosion been involved; now I'm guessing.

    Actually, IIRC, the class action law suit lawyers guesstimate 25000 or 30000 to 50000 houses involved (read B I G M O N E Y).

    Oh, I've also read most of everything on their site concerning this. They have the pictures of the corrosion in cut-away plumbing.
  14. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    Phil, we were posting at the same time.

    Yes, there are many "claims" and most are eventally proven untrue but never correctable; like all gossip. IMO most unfounded claims are agenda driven by those with a monetary interest in the use of copper.
  15. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    I see that yesterday Mickey and I were posting at the same time. I missed this until now.

    ATTENTION rugged: (Apparently the judge ruled the fittings are the defect and the there is no need for any repiping).

    Rancher, if your PB has lasted this long in a slab, it probably won't be leaking any time soon. If it does leak, I'd use homerun PE or PEX to replace it with, and I probably would put it in conduit like larger ID PE or sch 40 PVC for easy replacement if needed. Personally I think all slabs should have been plumbed that way from day one and given a blueprint of ther slab plumbing (in an ideal world)...

    Just make sure you and/or the plumber strictly follow the instructions for storage, handling, installation and insure the fittings are done right while paying attention to the water quality that is going to be run through it meets the manufacturers' min/max guidelines.
  16. Here's an ideal world Gary

    An ideal world that mickey's situation never existed to begin with.

    An ideal world that this house doesn't have holes galore to see the piping in his walls

    An ideal world that the mfg of this piping SHOULD of tested their materials before gloating its promise of everything great and now the thousands of people are suffering from that choice.

    In your ideal world gary you would probably tell mickey to go ahead and pull those pipes into position, stretching them to use a new fitting to connect two or three pipes back together.

    Another bad scenario grows from that as well. The proper workmanship you mention would not include stretching those pipes to meet each other to say lets replace a tee. Pulling that pipe tighter will create the issue of thermal expansion if there is no "give" to the pipe and now when hot water goes through the piping, it's pulling on that new connection.

    SO,

    The correct application for Mickey's dilemma would be to use 4 connections, not 1 like before at a tee intersection of a line. 3 couplings and 1 tee so that the piping is not strained or pulled together to make that next connection.


    Explain to me and the internet world gary how this is acceptable for someone who has a house with this piping system to go after 4 connections to 1 if they want it done right. Every time you add more connections to any piping system, the cost and the possibility of leaks grows.


    Here's what the public is not aware of regarding these systems:

    Certain PEX mfg. are already out of business.....quit making their product and even though it was installed...there is no way to sue them if and when it fails. < How would you like to be waiting for that ticking time bomb to go off...and not know of the situation?

    "Other" companies from a profit endeavor are trying to make products (crimp rings for example) to make up for what this once been company produced.

    System failures have been proven in hydronic systems (see link above)

    Makes no sense how the plastic industry passes off a product before thoroughly tested. OTHERWISE THESE LIABILITY ISSUES WOULDN"T EXIST

    I'm going to try to get an association of condo owners to join this thread who had a plumber in my area plumb their units with QEST PEX piping.

    Static pressure to the unit is 75 pounds, large thermal expansion tank at the meter group. All piping was installed per say code.

    Riddled with leaks, breaks are common monthly...the product is tearing open like it is ripping open longways in 1"-4" openings. It happens randomly throughout the home and the mfg. of the product AND the state plumbing committee who approved this garbage hasn't identified it's problem source.

    In the meantime the condo owners are suffering with the ongoing charges mounted by the plumbers,

    no class action lawsuit or "BIG MONEY" as gary wants you to think is motive even exists at this point,

    The homeowners, like some of you have joined and tons of you who have viewed this thread now and in the future are in a similar situation.

    It all equates to cost savings the builder/plumber assumed was in the best interest of all......and it wasn't.

    There are "those" who will try to discredit any of the bad things plastic water line systems produce.....that is why there is opposition to the reality of why this thread exists. That's fine. The "truth" is that there are tons of innocent victims that have issues with their plumbing system thanks to corporate decisions all the way down to the supplier then the plumber who installed this piping system that is KILLING the reputation of this so called good product.

    PB, BLUE MAX, PEX < All plastic piping systems...now they are all combined with legal issues stemming from its use.

    And these "victims" shouldn't have emotion? pfffft! Tell that to the single mother that has the possibility of losing her condo because the condo association WON'T ASSUME RESPONSIBILITY for the defective product,


    and she's shelling constant money out periodically to fix repairs not only to the piping itself, but the walls, wood, paint, drywall, wallpaper, carpet, or anything else that when the piping busts, it does damage.


    These victims have a voice in their situation....life interrupted is exactly what it is.


    To mickey,

    Unfortunately it sounds like there was a decision reached in the court system that didn't have allowances for larger homes and costs incurred. I would NOT go with the thinking of leaving the pipe in. All of those connections will be a sight to see along with the possibility of more leaks at any connection.

    Since major demolition would be needed to replace your system, take the shortcut ( a risk you have to take....and knowing what flavor of PEX isn't failing right now ) and repipe the house with minimal damage to structure.


    Try to keep it under the confines of the settlement amount, THEN SELL THE BUILDING.

    Get as far away from the responsibility of that piping system before it fails. Otherwise the "twice bitten" bug is coming to get you.....and you have only to blame yourself for stalling.

    Keep up the good work gary, chain posting and trying to dispute the reality of these failed systems keeps this subject matter in top view and priority. I'm all for it and keep up the good work.

    I'm sure there is a consensus can be drawn that my intentions in these subject matters are of the concern that people/homeowners are getting the short end of the stick in these situations.....and I'm all for protecting them with getting them the info they need to make INFORMED decisions before buying a property that unknowingly might have one of these failing systems.

    There's a value to that information...that's why I'm doing the deed to help. Thank you too gary. It wouldn't be fun without ya. I look forward to your rebuttal! :hugs: :kisses: :holdshands:
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2007
  17. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    rugged, you say "PB, BLUE MAX, PEX < All plastic piping systems...now they are all combined with legal issues stemming from its use.".

    I agree, you're right. And I agree that many people are suffering huge financial and emotional losses due to leaking water lines.

    What I disagree with and IMO you are wrong in, is your implying/inferring that all plastic everywhere is bad and shouldn't be used by anyone at anytime.

    Doing that is like saying vehicles should be banned because of the litterally million plus people per year, year after year for the last 50 plus years, that suffer life changing serious injuries and their expense.

    You will not admit to any problems with copper that is causing large numbers of people the same expensive damages and emotional time bomb life changing distress as those with plastic water lines.

    They have the same holes in the wall and until the copper is torn out and replaced, more leaks to look forward to, no matter if it's a retired couple on $400/month SS in an apartment or a single mother with four kids in her divorce settlement 4 bedroom slum or $500K house/condo she worked 24 hrs. a day over the last 20 years for.

    It's all terrible, period. Yet we all need affordable water lines in our houses. There is no even close to perfect defect free water line material; or accident free vehicle. So all that proves is that life is a risk and living is risky, but it still beats the only alternative.

    The truth is that the vast majority of residential water lines never leak before they are torn out of the building because of low flow or during a remodel etc. and most of us never have a vehicular accident with any more than minor injuries.

    I suggest we all admit it, evaluate the causes of both leaking water lines in houses/buildings and of vehicular accidents and prevent as many as possible and move on making everyone's lives better. All that depends on accurate information and gossip prevents accuracy and gets many going in the wrong direction which simply adds to the problems they are trying to solve.
  18. Gary,

    Plastic piping is here to stay, I won't change that and no one will. There "are" good plastic piping systems out there with some consideration following their track records of error-free operation.

    My stance on this whole subject matter refers to the defense of products that need a word of caution before you proceed.

    I bet the bank and I'll win on this next statement; Affordable piping in the minds of people would constitute that with the problems associated with failing piping systems, these people who are victimized by their situation....they would of paid double for the piping if they knew the train wreck that was coming.


    Even though I'm young(er) and still have lots and lots to learn in this profession, I come from the teachings of old school plumbing to express caution when the next fast and furious item comes into my hands to use.

    I guess that premace follows the baseline that I'm living in an area that years and years from now........when product fails like we all know that anything man-made does,

    I did what was in my best interest for those I worked for and myself to protect them from any product that indirectly causes harm/property damage.

    Example,

    I have installed nearly 200 B&K anti-siphon hose bibbs in my area over the last 3 years. I've only had 8 callbacks of the handles snapping. It's not my fault. It's a design flaw in the handle that cracks by exposure to UV rays and the fact that if the stem loses grease and gains friction, the handle is the first to go.

    I feel bad about it even though Mueller supplies the customer with a free handle @ no charge to them. It's the fact the customer made a informed decision to trust me to put the best product available at the time....and now that I've been getting these returning calls, I'm thinking that maybe it wasn't the best product.

    If only B&K would make an aluminum handle....I would buy them in bulk, send them to every customer I installed that for and go with the proactive approach to protect their interests and my reputation.

    Thing is, they don't make it. Wouldn't care if it cost me $500 for a box of handles.....I'm putting the consideration out there that I'm giving the customer something that will fix the problem at no cost to them.

    Every time this consideration of the repeated failures of plastic piping comes into play, you bring up copper corrosion/pinholing issues.


    I never stated that copper is the best choice for all areas. When copper fails 95% of the time, it's regional, it's normally always tied to either an electrical issue or ph levels found in water. Drive a car in wet and snowy weather where salt is used to de-ice and you'll have corrosion on the fenders of your car.

    If copper was extremely easy to install......it would be riddled with the same problems some of the plastic piping systems have.

    My point solely in being vocal in this matter of new piping systems is to

    review case histories of similar products
    follow the patterns of product failures and what causes them
    determine if its use is dictated solely by economics (cheap)
    determine if its use is faultered solely by workmanship (inexperienced installers because of its simplicity)
    Follow patterns of companies "bandwagoning" and joining the efforts to make a product and short term shut down....to avoid liability.


    No man-made product is perfect for ALL applications....it never will be.

    Look at toilets.....look at the reliability standards those follow. There are some on that map that consistently flunk on the chart due to poor performance.


    You know why they are still buying those low-performers? Economics of the individual or simply not being aware of what they purchased......and they find out the hard way later.

    I can honestly state for the record that I DO NOT know all the flavors of plastic piping out there. I can gauge by certain forums I belong to that their are preferable ones that are holding up......but I cannot for the life of me determine the "down the road" presence of reliability. It's too damn new.

    Why aren't this forums riddled with (*I have a house that was plumbed with PEX 34 years ago and I have a question about.....*)

    All I get in the forums are (*I have a house that has PB or BlueMax and I want to know if this system needs to be replaced, can you.....*)

    I can't be sold on any product in the profession of plumbing regarding plastic piping until the lawsuits and continuing problems with these systems.....minimize.
  19. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    Ok, I agree that people need to look where they'll land before leaping. And most do not do that because they just "love the house" and must have it N O W or, they pinch every penny and go solely on price. And many get taken and burned BUT, there's nothing like the school of hard knocks to teach unforgettable lessons.

    The problem today is that most of those folks refuse to take any responsibility for THEIR decisions that got'em burned; it's always someone else's fault.

    I can appreciate you wanting to replace faucet handles before they break because you think maybe they aren't as good as you told people they were. I've been there a few times myself. And I went back to all of those customers and informed them of what I had learned. I was well recieved, so maybe you should get a case of handles and do it; write it off as advertising expense. Or, tell them to remove the handle and keep it inside until they need it and find some key chain for them to use so they don't misplace the handle.
  20. Downhome

    Downhome New Member

    Messages:
    3
    A question for the professionals re Kitec/Aquapex

    I am a layperson who's been sent the class action information by a lawfirm in Nevada re Kitec plumbing.
    My electrical box has a sticker that says I have Aquapex by Wirsbo. My homeowners manual says the same thing.
    The law firm says they sent the letter to anyone who they had reason to believe might have Kitec plumbing. They say the only way to verify what I have is to have an inspection - the least invasive way by having a plumber poke a pencil eraser size hole under the kitchen sink and insert a camera to take a picture of the fittings.
    I asked whether the brand of fittings used could be mixed throughout the house and the lawyer said no, only the fitting appropriate to the brand of tubing could be used.
    So here is my question
    Most of the tubes are run through our attic and dropped through the walls to the bathrooms and kitchen. If only Kitec fittings can be used with Kitec tubing and Aquapex fittings with Aquapex tubing, why can't someone just go into the attic and look at the type of tubing used to determine what type of fitting we have??? Why does there have to be any cutting through the drywall at all???
    I appreciate any insight the pros on this site can give.
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