Hack Plumber? ... Oops -NO a licensed plumber!

Discussion in 'Plumbing Forum, Professional & DIY Advice, Tips & ' started by coyotehills, Nov 30, 2007.

  1. coyotehills

    coyotehills New Member

    Messages:
    3
    Location:
    Missouri
    I found this installation the hard way while installing Hardie Board on the 1st floor matser bath. This is a cantilever section below double vanity from the master bath with all four supply lines attached directly to the underside of the subfloor. I got lucky and missed the pipe twice but hit it the third time. BTW 3 years ago I had to replumb the valve and supply line for ice maker from hot to cold in the house across the street.
    h20pipe.jpg
  2. construct30

    construct30 New Member

    Messages:
    590
    Location:
    NorthWest PA
    Might be licensed, but not professional. Not very pretty. Unfortunately a license does not always mean a guy knows how to do something right. In Pa we do not have a license, yet, but next door they do and I've seem a lot of no code compliant crap done by licensed individuals that also passed inspection, in the plumbing and electrical fields. Was that work inspected too?
  3. tinner666

    tinner666 New Member

    Messages:
    19
    Location:
    Central Va.
    The things that turn up!:D
  4. So it's the plumber's fault

    That you're using oversized screws to anchor flooring.


    Explain the how so to this; that copper piping was operating error-free until you decided NOT to measure your screws before working.

    Plumbers will install piping in that fashion when the joist space is busy ie heat run, around romex runs or gas lines, beam.

    Learn how to use properly sized screws next time and you won't have a reason to join a forum and complain about your stupid mistake.

    Those pipes didn't leak until you screwed a screw in them, just for the record. imslow.gif
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2007
  5. construct30

    construct30 New Member

    Messages:
    590
    Location:
    NorthWest PA
    Rugged, I'm sorry, you might think I'm a hack, but any inspector I've ever dealt with would fail that plumbing. If you run a pipe too close to the edge of a framing member then a metal pipe protector is in order. Strapping a pipe to the under side of the plywood is a terrible idea. If a joist space is that busy, then you better find a different place to run. Besides look at the terrible globs of solder, ugly. The guy has a legitimate complaint. I usually respect the heck out of your comments Rugged, but this time you're off base.
  6. Terry

    Terry Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    14,783
    Location:
    Bothell, Washington
    It's not against plumbing code to have the pipes that high.
    Most of the time, they are not that high, but sometimes to miss other objects, they might be.
    I like to keep them a ways from the bottom of the floor for two reasons.
    Easier to solder and cut pipe.
    Less chance of getting nailed.
  7. coyotehills

    coyotehills New Member

    Messages:
    3
    Location:
    Missouri
    Excuuuse Me

    I guess I should have used shorter screws at let the floor fail! BTW I don't see any romex, hvac or anything else in that cavity. Also I didn't think 2 wrongs made it right!
  8. construct30

    construct30 New Member

    Messages:
    590
    Location:
    NorthWest PA
    Terry in Pa, we use the 2006 International Plumbing Code, if you have one read 305.8 protection against physical damage section.
  9. Inciteful thread packed with knowledge!





    Do you know what that means?

    That means the plumber needs to allow for the most possible/largest R-factor of insulation available in this area since it is exposed to the elements when the plumbing is installed in an area where living space is non-existent.

    That job (new construction) was spec'd on a 2X8 joist space with R-30 16" o.c. Kraft-Faced insulation.

    See the little dabs of insulation hanging to the wood near the floor? That's why.

    Plumber has to protect thier piping from bursting in an area where room temperature is not possible to protect from freezing....a liability back on the plumber,

    a extreme difficulty for the insulator to properly insulate that joist space with the correct insulation to control thermal loss.

    I'm right on target like I was when I typed my first response. I don't feel sorry for the event that unfolded as that plumbing was working just fine before LONG screws were shot into the floor. Don't worry about freezing, worry about long screws plumbah!
  10. construct30

    construct30 New Member

    Messages:
    590
    Location:
    NorthWest PA
    Section 305.8 protection from physical damage! I used to be an insulation contractor, now I'm a plumber, I have to worry about my pipes first now. I used to have to use foam board or furring to get the R value I needed below pipe in such cases. The plumber should have allowed for the 1 5/8 screws usually used on durarock and such underlayments and protected his hidden pipes.
  11. Where's the woodburning?

    If those pipes are so close to the floor,



    where are the burn marks on the wood.


    Certainly that plumber didn't take the time to protect that fine wood when he didn't bother wiping the excess flux and solder off the piping.


    Explain the lack of wood burning with those pipes being so close as you feel they are. It's impossible NOT to burn wood when they are that close, so what gives?

    The strength of a nail or screw is diminished greatly when it fully penetrates through the structure it's holding.

    2/3rds with no break through is the carpenters golden rule.
  12. hj

    hj Moderator & Master Plumber Staff Member

    Messages:
    26,270
    Location:
    Cave Creek, Arizona
    ?

    Once a screw penetrates the wood, any extra length does nothing to increase its holding power. If you wanted to use extra long screws you should have screwed it to the joists, not the subfloor.
  13. construct30

    construct30 New Member

    Messages:
    590
    Location:
    NorthWest PA
    Those appear to be two hole straps not standoff straps, which means they are screwed tight to the plywood subfloor. The 2003 Residential Code for one and two family dwellings: P2603.2.1 Protection against physical damage. 2006 International Plumbing Code: 305.8 Protection against physical damage. The UPC: 313.9 They are a little more forgiving and give you one inch instead of one and a half. As plumbers we should protect our pipes if they are in the ground or above ground. For ceramic you are supposed to glue and screw with 1 5/8" durarock screws. 1/2" durarock, 3/4" subfloor, My math says that adds up to 1 1/4" , a pipe strapped under a bathroom floor, directly to the floor plywood, is going to get some holes in it.

    As for the no burn marks, he soldered the pipes then put them up as shown by the coupling, he made a mistake in his measurments or alignment and had to make the cut.

    I want to stick up for a professional as much as the next guy, protect the brotherhood, but when a mistake is made, I have made more than my share, I will admit it.
  14. construct30

    construct30 New Member

    Messages:
    590
    Location:
    NorthWest PA
    They require too many screws in underlayment, to just hit the joist. Ceremic tile will break or the grout will crack if not screwed properly. Did you ever see the little x's on underlayment, we were taught to hit every other one of those with a screw or staple.
  15. smellslike$tome

    smellslike$tome Plumbing Company Owner

    Messages:
    92
    Location:
    Birmingham, Alabama
    It's an imperfect world.

    You're both right and you are both wrong. It makes no common sense to strap pipes to the bottom of a floor, code or no code. No one can account for what someone else might do in the future, common sense and professionalism demand that the good of the HO be of greater concern than expediency. The insulation is an important issue. The answer is that the pipes should have been located a minimum of 1.5 inches below the floor and strapped to the floor joist. This of course makes for a slightly more difficult installation, which is no doubt why in the cut throat world of new construction it is not done, but would allow for protection of the pipe while enabling the insulator to do his thing with little difficulty. Additionally, in my neck of the woods, and depending on which inspector you might get on a given day, the pipes would be required to have some type of pipe insulation such as armaflex. Better yet it should have been a pex installation especially in these circumstances. Pex is certainly no more screw resistant than copper but if it should freeze it will not rupture which is a claim that copper can not make. I am assuming of course that the local code would permit pex installations.
  16. smellslike$tome

    smellslike$tome Plumbing Company Owner

    Messages:
    92
    Location:
    Birmingham, Alabama
    Also I was going to say based on the couplings, that it looks to me as though this was not the first time the pipe was punctured. A short measurement would account for 1 coupling and a puncture would account for 2 unless he was short twice in which case we are probably talking about one of those special drunk plumbers.
  17. frenchie

    frenchie Jack of all trades

    Okay...

    - somebody needs to answer the 305.8 aspect. If the plumber broke code... case closed.

    - punching through the back of plywood with your fastener, actually does increase it's holding power somewhat. It's a marginal increase, but it's there. Don't believe me? Find a structural engineer who works with wood a lot, and ask him/her.

    - are you guys seriously trying to tell me that you've never seen a nail or screw protruding through a subfloor before?

    - For wonderboard screws, 1-5/8 is the most common size, by a HUGE margin. I've seen people post threads, on DIY forums, asking if other sizes even exists. I can't get 1-1/4 at my local hardware stores, or the big box stores (which is fine, since I prefer lumberyards, anyways).

    - This was totally forseeable. If my plumber was running lines that close to the subfloor, I'd have him change it. I honestly can't imagine him doing it, though; he's good about remembering the next guy.
  18. cwhyu2

    cwhyu2 Consultant

    Messages:
    1,331
    Location:
    Cincinnati OH
    sub floor

    I would never run piping that close to the sub floor.But anybody can do it all.
  19. sniff sniff, whimper

    So the plumber's long and gone, pipes holding water and working error-free mind you and all of sudden a new floor makes it the plumber's problem?


    No.

    For the same reason why a carpenter shoots a nail on a trim board and hits a pipe in the wall, he's paying for the damage.


    For the same reason when a drywaller screws a screw through the wall and hits a drain or water line, depending on how lucky he was that day :p, he's paying for the damage.


    I personally have never ran water lines that close to a floor but I understand how important the R-factor is in overhangs.


    I also understand that this thread is just a minor jab at the plumber since you're probably footing the tab for using long screws. Bitch and moan all you want.......


    but there wasn't a plumbing problem until you decided to lay a floor.

    That sits heavily in your customer's mind and you can call the plumber anything you want, it's on your dime.

    I think the same way of carpenters when I run my brand new 2-9/16" milwaukee drill bit through the bottom plate and catch not one, not two, but sometimes 3 nails that spiralled out of control when they was stabbing the sides of stud instead of nailing bottom up when they should of.

    I'll also think of them when they laid the joists out around the toilet where I have to use an offset flange, giving the customer a world of joy joy of misery for a lifetime in the home with no way around it short of using headers and boxing out, structurally affecting the floor integrity.

    Should I mention that *#&$ing center stud that they always put up on a shower wall where the valve goes, right where it has to be removed?

    How bout scabbing drywall catches or doubling up studs in a corner when a vent rolls around them to come out and catch the main stack.

    How bout when you all H-clip the roof sheathing right where my main stack is going out, causing me to double roll 45's which COSTS ME MONEY. lol


    Don't even get me started on floor guys who don't raise the closet flanges to the finished floor surface as required by industry standard. What? Who me? Yeah YOU.

    Come to raise the roost with a plumber expect one to tell the tales of the nonsense bull**** I dealt with all those years I did new construction.


    And they wondered why they had sand in thier air compressors when they came back from lunch. :eek::D
  20. construct30

    construct30 New Member

    Messages:
    590
    Location:
    NorthWest PA
    I didn't say they shouldn't insulate properly. There is foamboard that can be nailded below the joist, they could put furring on the joists to get the proper insulation. All the International plumbing code asks for is 1 1/2" the upc only 1". Any one who cares to do it right, buy some stand off hangers, I hardly ever use those two hole straps any more. Nothing can be done about the "professional" that did that job. DIYers read this stuff and think it is OK if guys like Rugged or Terry say it's OK. I would love to hear what Grumpy has to say. We have all had ocassion to moan about "stuff that happens", when someone does some thing wrong. He chose to do that here, I'll allow him that. I won't nail his plumber to a cross, heck I might be hanging next to him tomorrow. I will allow this home owner to moan, provided the plumber got paid... I wonder... Did he loose his...
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2007
Similar Threads: Hack Plumber
Forum Title Date
Plumbing Forum, Professional & DIY Advice, Tips & would you consider this hack work? Mar 22, 2013
Plumbing Forum, Professional & DIY Advice, Tips & House water turned off for 3 hours, house plumbing out of whack - Air in system? Sep 13, 2007
Plumbing Forum, Professional & DIY Advice, Tips & Shower Arm Flange for Hacks? Jul 1, 2007
Plumbing Forum, Professional & DIY Advice, Tips & Knocking Pipes (plumbers couldn't figure it out) Jul 21, 2014
Plumbing Forum, Professional & DIY Advice, Tips & Plumber coming tomorrow; my late husband used to do ALL these type repairs/remodels.. May 13, 2014

Share This Page