Hack Plumber? ... Oops -NO a licensed plumber!

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Bob NH

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"The strength of a nail or screw is diminished greatly when it fully penetrates through the structure it's holding.

2/3rds with no break through is the carpenters golden rule."

That doesn't apply when screwing into plywood or when using screws with minimal engagement.

Most plywood subfloor is 5/8", sometimes 1/2 and sometimes 3/4. "Drywall screws" have a long tapered point and the end doesn't hold much. To get maximum strength the point must go through until the full diameter section of the screw goes through the plywood.

One solution to the installation would be to put a piece of 3/4" thick strapping on the underside of the plywood at the appropriate support intervals and strap the pipes to that.
 

Jadnashua

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WHen installing a roof, they tell you the nails MUST penetrate. Don't need much, but sometimes you don't have much choice.
 

TMB9862

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Better yet it should have been a pex installation especially in these circumstances. Pex is certainly no more screw resistant than copper but if it should freeze it will not rupture which is a claim that copper can not make. I am assuming of course that the local code would permit pex installations.

You're forgetting how new pex is and how it's just in the last few years been made legal. I'm sure their are still some places where it isn't legal. It was just a couple months ago here they started allowing it's use in commercial applications, it's been legal in residential for a few years.
 

Cass

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Well the plumber or who ever, (do you even know who did the plumbing) put the pipe high to avoid freezing. Its just the way it is.

If they had left it a few inches down and it froze and burst it would be a different complaint.

Oh boy, I just looked out and the barn door is open and the horse is gone, I need to go and find out who left the door open.

Later....
 

Dunbar Plumbing

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"The strength of a nail or screw is diminished greatly when it fully penetrates through the structure it's holding.

2/3rds with no break through is the carpenters golden rule."



That's great. Not only are the woodworkers driving screws into perfectly good copper piping, now they are lying to me about how far screws go into the wood!!!

Aarrrrrrrrrrrrrrrghhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :mad::mad:


They can never be trusted, again.


Thanks Cass for changing your word of the week; I was overknowledged on the last one :cool:

I'd rather have that piping the way it is and never freeze than to worry about the long screw bandit making a homemade sprinkler system in the basement.
 

Construct30

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I'd rather have that piping the way it is and never freeze than to worry about the long screw bandit making a homemade sprinkler system in the basement.



You can accomplish both taskes, keeping pipe from freezing and protecting the pipe. I have had situations like that and never had a problem. I didn't rely on someone else to insulate the bay correctly I did it myself. Most houses with a cantiliever have at least a 2" x 10" for joist. Rugged where did you get that house had 2" x 8" for joist, they looked bigger than that to me?

According to code if that pipe is not 1 1/2" from the edge of the framing member, it has to be protected using 0.062-inch-thick (1.6 mm) steel. That is if the pipe is running perpendicular or parallel to the member. The short of it is if you run a pipe like that it does NOT meet code and should fail inspection. If you want to strap a pipe directly to the floor then protect it with metal. There is always a way to do it correctly. Next you will be telling me there is a reason not to put a trap on a tub drain, come on you are a professional do the job right or don't do it. The code usually has all the answers if you care to look, use steel if you like, I like to use stand off straps and get the insulation to work, but if that were not possible I would be buying some steel plate.

Frenchie asked you to answer the code aspect, can you or not? If I'm wrong prove it.
 
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Alectrician

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I don't see any romex, hvac or anything else in that cavity.


Per code, Romex would have to be 1 1/4 in to allow for screws.


Seems like plumbing would have similar requirements. I guess the water can't kill you though.
 

AZ Contractor

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Holy crap! You guys are funny.

If a carpenter is installing baseboard and one of his nails (less than 1 1/2" off the floor hits a copper pipe who pays?

I can't stand it when trades come out and can't use a little bit of foreshadowing while doing there install to prevent future problems.

If you did that plumbing install for me, I'd make you tear it and start over before the inspector makes you tear it out and start over. If you didn't want to you would have to use steel to protect it from situations like the one that just happened. If you didn't want to use steel, I'd back-charge you and have someone else do it.

Electricians running there wires just under a slab or a plumber running copper at the edge of a framing member lack foreshadowing.

Think ahead gentlemen. Its not that difficult.
 

Cass

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Lets think about this...I believe this problem was due to the poster not doing what he should have done prior to beginning any work.

The photo in the first post shows the water line hugging and strapped to the bottom of the floor.

It also shows a T that must be in a heated area because it is below the Joice.

I never cut, drill or screw unless I look at and inspect or feel the area first, if possible.

I would have looked underneath for any wires, ducts, or plumbing and If I had seen the T going up into insulation, knowing it was feeding the area I was going to be working on, I would have pulled it down and looked first.

Did you do this...
 

TMB9862

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I never cut, drill or screw unless I look at and inspect or feel the area first, if possible.
/QUOTE]
That's one of the best points so far in this thread. I've saved myself many times from hitting pipes and wires because I took the time to look.
 

hj

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the next guy

Very, very few trades worry about the next guy. The carpenter does not worry about where the plumber is going to drill a hole when he shoots a nail, although they seem to be able to figure it out so the nail is at least somewhere that the hole has to go. The electrician does not worry when he runs his wire through the center of the wall. The heating guy cuts the plumber's vent lines when they are in the way, and you expect the plumber to spend extra time because THEY might have a problem with HIS installation? If the floor installer is going to have a problem then have the carpenter install 2x4's between the joists during the framing so the plumber can strap his pipes to them.
 

Construct30

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The original poster should have checked to make sure nothing was under there, I agree.

Plumbing codes, IPC, UPC, IRC all say that what was done with the plumbing was wrong. I posted all the sections for the codes earlier. If you call yourself a plumber and don't have a code book you're a "hack", to use the poster's term, it is the most important tool in your van, truck or office.

I've had, in other threads, you licensed plumbers from other states pretty much figure people in PA are hicks because we don't have licensing, but our public utilities have made us do work to code since my dad was a union electrictian in the 60's. We have state wide inspections that use the 2003 and now the 2006 IRC, we could never get away with a mess like that.

I don't understand why the Pro Plumbers on this site can cut a DIYer down because they don't know some of the hard concepts about venting, but you try to defend a "hack" job like this one that is so simple to understand. I am really suprised to find that here.

As far as the original poster, get it fixed, slide a piece of 1/16" or thicker steel plate above the pipe shim the straps just an 1/8" so the copper is not touching the steel and amazingly it fixes future problems and brings that mess back up to code.
 

GrumpyPlumber

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So the plumber's long and gone, pipes holding water and working error-free mind you and all of sudden a new floor makes it the plumber's problem?


No.

Here, YES.
I don't know about UPC, IPC, IBC, NPC, ABC or XYZ, BUT -
In my state -
Any time a pipe passes through a joist, stud, plate, header, or any other form of framing within 3" of the nailing surface, the plumber is responsible for installing nail plates (guards). Inspectors fail plumbers on this all the time, very common thing to forget.
Here, we're supposed to keep plastic/copper pipe 3" away from exterior sheathing for the obvious reason...how many times have you bumped your head into nail stubs in a basement subfloor or attic sheathing while working?
This is obviously a jurisdictional thing here, but personally I wouldn't do it even if I were allowed unless I had no choice, even then I'd guard it.


I think the same way of carpenters when I run my brand new 2-9/16" milwaukee drill bit through the bottom plate and catch not one, not two, but sometimes 3 nails that spiralled out of control when they was stabbing the sides of stud instead of nailing bottom up when they should of.
I use hole saws, less mess, they eat nails for breakfast, sure they take a little longer, but so does sharpening self feeds

Should I mention that *#&$ing center stud that they always put up on a shower wall where the valve goes, right where it has to be removed?
The 3 lb mini sledge removes studs nicely, then you secure your valve with strapping and let the Einstein figure out how to frame around it, guaranteed not to happen after the first couple of times.

Don't even get me started on floor guys who don't raise the closet flanges to the finished floor surface as required by industry standard. What? Who me? Yeah YOU.

Cut 1/2" strapping into 2" segments, break in half, put under the flange as spacers and screw flange into subfloor.
Glue from under and work away happily ever after.


I'm 100% with you on my thoughts on new residential construction, it's all about low bids, passing responsibility, and getting it done so fast you wonder if everything was done right.
Not to mention, English as a second language.
Whatever it takes for developers to make good money.
 

Dunbar Plumbing

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installing nail plates (guards).

Here as well, mandatory on the bottom plates, top plates, vents, water lines.



Here, we're supposed to keep plastic/copper pipe 3" away from exterior sheathing for the obvious reason...how many times have you bumped your head into nail stubs in a basement subfloor or attic sheathing while working?
This is obviously a jurisdictional thing here, but personally I wouldn't do it even if I were allowed unless I had no choice, even then I'd guard it.


It's been years since I've done new construction but every house we worked in had linoleum floors, tile wasn't as popular as it is today like it was back then......linoleum was king. <<< No need for the applications today. We always nailed 2X4's up against the joists vertical and ran them paralell with the joist making sure we nailed on the side where we followed the overlap board at the beam where joists come together. On kitchen sink water lines where there was a cantilever we'd bring up through the floor first, 90 over and let them rest on blocking, then turn it up through the bottom of the cabinet.

I however can recall at least once in the past few years where I ran a water line right up against the floor, had to fight a large round ductwork and going below wasn't an option. I used armaflex to protect the copper line from galvanic reaction to the ductwork.....no other options.

I use hole saws, less mess, they eat nails for breakfast, sure they take a little longer, but so does sharpening self feeds

I only use 1 hole saw; 4-3/4" for closet flanges, the same one for holes in shower walls whether concrete board for showers or fiberglass. I use a large expensive carbide in a cordless drill to sharpen my self feeds rather quickly.


The 3 lb mini sledge removes studs nicely, then you secure your valve with strapping and let the Einstein figure out how to frame around it, guaranteed not to happen after the first couple of times.

^^^^
Thats an easy fix but you're forgetting the cross brace for the shower lug ell for the shower head. Yes....it's nice to have one precut board for the equation but it always requires two to make a uniform install and the drywallers appreciate the consideration of something within the 16" oc realm. Otherwise I'm cutting a board 26" and taking it to the edge nailing flange of the shower. <<< That would get removed and reworked due to that application.





Cut 1/2" strapping into 2" segments, break in half, put under the flange as spacers and screw flange into subfloor.
Glue from under and work away happily ever after.

^^^^
I'm talking from a rework point of view. We used to use 1/2" copper cut to size to raise for the tile guys when it was spec'd for it. Wood seemingly wood disappear before the tile guys would arrive due to someone hitting them.

The overlay of the floors is where the problems start, some of them think straining that piping and pulling up works; it doesn't. The correct method.....and most times there will be no access through the ceiling below, cut out and rework, install new wood if rotten/can't get right height and drill through new surface completely,reset.



I'm 100% with you on my thoughts on new residential construction, it's all about low bids, passing responsibility, and getting it done so fast you wonder if everything was done right.
Not to mention, English as a second language.
Whatever it takes for developers to make good money.[/quote]

I'm so glad I'm out of new construction. Some of these larger homes required everything tucked in the joists, working off the tolerances of PVC pipe and fittings and numerous, NUMEROUS times we had to cut the hubs or street ends of PVC pipe fittings to make tight turns or otherwise to get from point A to point B without any structural modifications. They just simply wouldn't allow it. Then fish water lines around that equation in the center only of the joists; when I was doing new construction we could do the bottom of the joists, notching them all the way from one end of the house to the other.

Think the opposite of bottom and thirty years ago and plumbers would install water lines, mostly galvanized in the top of the joists and notch them to whereever they needed to go. Of course, driving a nail through galvanized piping would definitely make you special....special to accomplish that feat.

In today's age of materials...just pulling product against a sharp edge can produce failure points. That's what scares me about sharkbites or anything relying on an 0-ring to protect from leaking. I've seen copper knurled/ovalled/imperfect from transport.....CPVC with scratches and grooves, gouges from damage I assume from plant to structure.


This thread gives me interest to keep camera close and near for the next carpenter screwup I see in my line of work. Be prepared. h-nasty.gif
 

Frenchie

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This thread gives me interest to keep camera close and near for the next carpenter screwup I see in my line of work. Be prepared. View attachment 3333

I'll start. See if you can beat this!

Hack plumber + hack carpenter = oh, so that's why the floor sags!
 

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Larry4

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PA license

Construct30 When you say we dont have a license in PA. What are you refering too? Everwhere I go to pull a permit they want my masters Lic, where took test etc..
 

Construct30

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Larry4 there is no state license. Several counties and towns have license, but where I live none. You can go to the pa plumbers association web site to see the newest bill they are trying to pass to require a state license. If this bill passes it will be like the uniform construction code act, it will be the only required license, no county or small town will be allowed to require their own license. I know Allegheny county for one is fighting that part they want to keep their local requirement. It didn't fly when it came to the uniform construction code act and I don't think it will fly for this either. It is some thing big companies and even the union wants so they can work any where in the state without the locals harrassing them. Where are you from Larry. It doesn't say under your name, go to the private options and put it in. I'm north of pittsburgh.
 
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