Educating The Budget Client on Tile shower pricing

Discussion in 'Shower & Bathtub Forum & Blog' started by RedShoecounterbalance, Apr 27, 2014.

  1. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple Bathroom Design & Build - North Vancouver, B.C.

    Messages:
    4,412
    Location:
    North Vancouver, BC
    HJ that is a rough guess for new construction. Do you not have a fixture cost estimate for builders on new homes?

    On many of the challenging jobs we do Isn't the plumber in for a look. Lots of time he ends up between $2,200 and $4,500 for an upscale bathroom renovation here in Vancouver.
  2. dhagin

    dhagin builder:anti-builder

    Messages:
    108
    Location:
    oahu
    I'm sorry Mr, Mrs, Ms (or whatever) rscb. I did read from the beginning, and reread from the beginning. Still no answer to any of those questions I asked? Maybe someone who estimates, runs, owns, or schedules for a contracting business could help?

    Define the parameters, then solicit bidding info. At least that's how i've always operated.

    For detailed tile installation information, perhaps you'd be better informed to discuss this with the wide variety of actual professional tile installers & contractors on John Bridge's site instead of the usual characters on a plumbing site? Just a thought. ;)
  3. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple Bathroom Design & Build - North Vancouver, B.C.

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    Location:
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    Nice link out of here Dana. Why not tell us all why you have no active company name anymore. An active company doing business above board can be goggled. You sir are a ghost and all paths lead to a shut down operation I believe.

    Nice of you to pretend to be an active builder. This is a pattern with you John Bridge Boys is it not?
  4. Vegas_sparky

    Vegas_sparky Eat kitty

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    290
    Location:
    LV,NV/ Nowhere,UT
    I've read plenty of sound advice from Dana. He seems like a cool cat to me. Most of the regulars at JB are. I don't know what makes you hate on them so bad. We're all just trying to build stuff, and make a buck(or lots of em).
  5. RedShoecounterbalance

    RedShoecounterbalance Member

    Messages:
    414
    Location:
    Minnesota

    Lets get our nice friend Dhagin up to speed shall we ??? here ya go tough guy, since you cant read ill help you......XOXO
  6. dhagin

    dhagin builder:anti-builder

    Messages:
    108
    Location:
    oahu
    Oh, i see. Perhaps you could benefit from something like this. There are some very good estimating books out there, have been for a long time. They typically have multipliers for various regions. :)

    https://www.google.com/search?q=est...la:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&channel=sb
  7. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple Bathroom Design & Build - North Vancouver, B.C.

    Messages:
    4,412
    Location:
    North Vancouver, BC
    Vegas our nice friend Dana here is another John Bridge Poacher. Like Jim. He floats in and out depending on how well Jim is doing with his link count. When Jim is taking a lot of heat - like he has in the past Dana shows up.

    Dana like jim has a goal to link people back to John's forum. Goggle the guy. A pretend builder with a shut down company. Why is that? Why are we taking advice from a builder with no apparent insurance or company registered? Seems odd to me.

    Google Roberto. You will find a company. Goggle me - same. Goggle Dana - nothing - another ghost writer for John Bridge. Some old washed up wanna be I'm sure sitting in his office day in day out.
  8. RedShoecounterbalance

    RedShoecounterbalance Member

    Messages:
    414
    Location:
    Minnesota
  9. RedShoecounterbalance

    RedShoecounterbalance Member

    Messages:
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    Location:
    Minnesota
    Ok, I've settled down and im back, lets get a real world pricing break down from MikeQ on his neat custom compact shower?

    We all saw and heard how he did it, and it came out very nice . he made some tough choices , maybe bent a rule, but how much did it all cost ?


    Mike? Thourough breakdown please?
  10. MikeQ

    MikeQ New Member

    Messages:
    87
    Location:
    Washington
    Are you kidding? The last thing I am is an accountant, more of a seat of the pants guy.

    The cost was 100% materials except I paid my electrician friend to install the can light and an extra circuit for the floor heat while he was adding breakers for the conversion to on-demand electric hot water. Labor was the cheap part. And it would be hard to break materials and labor down just for the shower because the thinset, warmwire, thermostat, Hardiboard, supply and drain plumbing, etc. is shared between the shower and the rest of the bath remodel.

    Biggest expenses were 3/8" tempered glass panels (2 clear for bi-fold door and one large rain glass). With C.L. Laurence hardware and shipping from California that was over $2000, maybe closer to $3000, don't have the paper here. I thought the tile I envisioned would be relatively inexpensive because it's just regular ol' glazed ceramic. But I wanted bright pastels and I learned that the typical consumer just loves tile in various shades of dirt and baby diarrhea! Shocking but true. Why anyone would want that is beyond me! The tiles also needed to be sized such that they would work with the 1x1, 1x2 and 2x2 pattern I chose. Bottom line after lengthy searches and inquiries, what I envisioned originally was not available. I compromised a little on color (not as bright of pastel colors) and on size (I originally wanted 2"x2", 2"x4" and 4"x4" instead of 3x3,3x6 and 6x6). And even these were only available from Dal Tile with 8 week lead time, glazed to order, full boxes only. Anyone want to buy some nearly full boxes of colored 3x3 tiles?

    Niche shelf I cut from a left-over scrap of the vanity slab.

    When I had gutted the bathroom I had a local contractor installing a metal roof on-site. Just for kicks I told him what I wanted to see if he was interested in throwing out a bid for the bath remodel from the gutted stage. New tile shower w/Kerdi, tile bathroom floor with heat and waterproofing, yaddda-yadda. He thought a minute and said something like "Well most of the plumbing is right there, it's not much more than a one day job". My jaw dropped to the floor. I looked him in the eye but he was dead serious. So I said flatly "I said a TILE shower" not even mentioning the heated tile floor etc. Quick as a whip (and as if I hadn't just told him what I wanted) he said incredulously "Why do you want THAT?". It was literally beyond his comprehension why I would want something more expensive than a plastic shower.

    The real trick to bidding a shower is knowing how many days it's going to consume and how much you want to make per day. And that depends on how many corners one is willing to cut and how efficient one is.
  11. RedShoecounterbalance

    RedShoecounterbalance Member

    Messages:
    414
    Location:
    Minnesota
    C'mon Mike? Im betting that you spent at least 3-4k on materials?? And say 2-3 weeks of labor, countless hrs researching how- to, and how many hours awake at night doubting yourself??!! Doubting the variables from online advice youd read and maybe had to buy the wife a nice dinner or 2 ? So how much is Mikes skill and labor worth? You may have a 7k shower there?????
  12. MikeQ

    MikeQ New Member

    Messages:
    87
    Location:
    Washington
    No materials were probably close to 6K. I did it for fun but if you want to pay me we're up to somewhere north of 10K.

    Way north. As in Arctic Circle north.

    But it's priceless.
  13. RedShoecounterbalance

    RedShoecounterbalance Member

    Messages:
    414
    Location:
    Minnesota
    OK so lets recap that for the people the homeowners....

    Here is A recently built 2014 Tile shower Project.....Total cost 6-10K

    Here Mike has showcased pictures and details of how his shower was built, many materials used, and had spent nearly 6K on materials alone....and yes this is a higher end example.

    Mike cant estimate his time consumption and labor because he is not in buisness as A tile contractor and most likely wasnt counting...

    Mike may not be thinking of buisness expenses, how much time he put into sourcing driving and delivering materials, he may not be thinking of the cost of tile blades even.. and why would he?

    Yet Mike has valued his shower project at 6-10K + and duly so , I would go on record saying it looks to be on par with a higher end contractor build.... and that Mike may be an example of one of few DIY homeowners with this skill set and attention to details to achieve these results.

    John? Roberto? Dana? how much would it cost for you to build this shower in your market in a similar situation??????
    Last edited: May 10, 2014
  14. DougB

    DougB Member

    Ok RedShoeCounterBalance.... I'm game.

    In 2011 I remodeled the '2nd bathroom', in the lower level of my walk-out home. Here's what the project consisted of:

    About a 7' X 10' bathroom. Demoed entire room / ceiling / floor. Sawed an 18" cut in floor for relocating drains. Plumber friend helped me with the venting ($400 to him). New framing for shower. Installed Tile Redi shower pan. Relocated radiator. All new copper plumbing in and around bathroom. Installed all new electrical boxes, cut 5" hole in stone home for vent. New ceiling lights and light in shower. Cement board in shower, drywall in rest of room and ceiling. Tiled shower and floor with 12" porclain through body tile - $5 sq/ft. Grohe thermostatic vavle and shower head. Toto one piece toilet. Wife bought $1250 - 55" 'floating' vanity on line. Warmly Yours heating mat and Honeywell T-stat. Ditra on floor. New 6 panel Hemlock door. Custom (cause of size) rain glass by-pass shower door (about $900?).

    Out of pocket was $10,000. I figure if I had someone do this it would have been $20k - $25k.

    It was a lot of work. I figure if I had a helper the time may have been cut by 60%.

    Being a self employed software developer - I'd say you should plan on making $75 /hr minimum. I figure 2000 hrs/yr * $75 = $150,000. Naturally there's overhead - health insurance, vacation, transportation, tools, sales, down time.... Actually I think you should aim for $100 /hr if you're not billable 2000 hrs/yr.

    If there's one thing I've learned being self employed since 1985 - you can't work 'balls to the wall' 7 days a week - forever. Even though you're enthused about your work, and the result - after a while you slow down. All this has to be build into pricing.

    I'll post some pictures later tonight.
    Last edited: May 21, 2014
  15. DougB

    DougB Member

    Here are some pics..

    finished shower:

    Shower_Complete.jpg

    Vanity:

    vanity_6_Completed_Install.jpg

    Plumbing and electr

    Backside View of Finished East Wall.jpg

    Busted up floor:
    Main Line - Toilet, Shower & Vents.jpg
    Last edited: May 21, 2014
  16. RedShoecounterbalance

    RedShoecounterbalance Member

    Messages:
    414
    Location:
    Minnesota
    Thanks for all that info Doug.............Here folks we have an extensive basement demo and rebuild. Maybe a little extreme in regards to simply pricing a tile shower or the shower only portion of Doug's project (? DOUG ?!!). Doug put at least 10K into this and a ton of sweat.......... and is considering this to be a nearly 20K project had he hired a PRO, but Doug clearly is in the trades and has a good grasp for this kind of work...

    Homeowners If someone is telling you they can build you a tile shower from demo to finished and its under 5K YOU should be leary and educating yourself on how to ask the right questions, how to spot a novice, and how to avoid a failed budget tile shower . WE NEVER hear about the failures, until we are called to quote a shower repair job of which I have seen more and more of in my area of Minneapolis and in surrounding St.Paul . The result is more and more undocumented tile shower tear outs..... It is really hard to break this news to the homeowner who just lost all this money. Usually the homeowner got a deal and didn't get receipts, written guarantees, or A flood tested shower pan.


    Doug Thinks a custom shower Builder in Minnesota (his and my area!) should be billing around $75 an hour. But how does the uneducated homeowner tell the difference between the novice that may be a good salesman???


    Now,what questions should the homeowner ask: ??????
  17. DougB

    DougB Member

    In the software industry we have a saying: "They can't afford to do it right the first time. But they have the money to do it over and over again!"

    If I were selling showers, I would have a picture book with all the steps that go into building a shower - the drain, the pan, the curb, with the pre-slope, the flood tested pan, the walls and water proofing, proper thinset etc I'd also have pictures of bad tile jobs, bad waterproofing, no preslope, cement board that wasn't shimmed properly, mold, mastic, etc.
  18. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple Bathroom Design & Build - North Vancouver, B.C.

    Messages:
    4,412
    Location:
    North Vancouver, BC
    Discounting your Quoted Price - Good Idea or Bad.

    Hey Counter here is my last quote....

    SCOPE:

    Under mount tub Prep
    LED Shower Niche
    32 square foot shower with ACO tile insert drain
    Waterproof walls of shower and tub area
    60 square feet dry zone to prep
    Set drain and mortar bed

    DryZone (Vanity toilet bidet area)

    - prep cement floor for NobleSeal CIS install (Ardex X32)
    - supply and install NobleSeal CIS to entire zone (Ardex X5)
    - supply and install capillary break at shower entrance (1/2” stainless Schluter bead)
    - seal CIS to exsiting shower waterproofing (NobleSealant 150)

    Shower Area

    - Supply install weep hole protection (Ditra Drain and Noble Positive weep hole protector)
    - Check weep holes are clear
    - Supply and Install ACO channel drain with tile insert grate and hair strainer 55.12” (1400mm) stainless steel
    - Supply & Install mortar bed (Laticrete 3701 with 16 gauge galvanized 2” mesh) over shower’s waterproofing
    - Walls waterproofed up to 6’ (including window sill) Labour & materials
    - Price does not include boarding of the walls. Please use 1/2” Wonderboard Lite (by Custom Building Products.

    Tub Area

    - waterproof tub deck face and tub deck (Ardex 8+9) labour and materials
    - supply & install Schluter profiles (1/4” aluminum estimated) to tubs top (takes away bevel)
    - waterproof walls up 24” (Ardex 8+9) labour and materials

    Estimated Material cost $ 2,205.00
    Labour 5 days - Day Rate $400.00 per day $2,000.00

    Fixed Price $4,205.00
    Tax 210.25

    Total $4,410.25


    A light featured would add $550.00 to the cost


    Sent it off the other day and the homeowner asked for a fixed price of $4,000.00

    $4,410.25 + $550 = $4,965.25

    Fixed price $4,000

    Nets a $965.25 discount.

    Seems excessive since I never really discount my rates. Would be nice to tackle this job since it's my core focus. I'm going to counter the request for $4,000.00 flat but no light feature.

    Fixed Price 3,809.52 plus 190.47 Tax = $4,000.00

    Add light feature for $450.00

    Both $4,450.00

    What do you think. Am I making a mistake discounting my rates?
  19. decaturbob

    decaturbob New Member

    Messages:
    2
    Location:
    decatur,illinois
    I have done several master bath remodel for myself and others. A recently tiled walk-in shower of 3x4,with glass door, moderate priced fixture and light along with mosaic tile banding... 2 built-in tiled shelves, 30in grab bar with hand held shower and a composite shower base ran approx 3500 total. This did not include plumbing or electric rough in. The tile cost for material was approx. $900. The shower construction took 3 weeks.. The overall cost of the mbr bath from start to finish.... Which included all demo and rough-ins as well as all new fixtures.. Soaking tub with tiled surround..radiant heated tile floor. $16,500. The project as with most remodels had its share of pre-existing conditions. Luckily my work is strickly T&M and the home owners provided about 30% of the overall labor.
  20. RedShoecounterbalance

    RedShoecounterbalance Member

    Messages:
    414
    Location:
    Minnesota

    John, very nice breakdown thanks for the insight to your scope and pricing, Se days I get calls for crappy dirtty work and The next A call for a neat project like yours. I try harder to price myself into these types of projects, the ones i want sometimes pay less !

    I have on occasion adjusted my price in your exact situation, but it also came with an adjusted scope of work, and a deferred task or 2 to the client. Cleaning , driving to get materials ?


    Does this client know they are getting the expert that you are?


    decaturbob,

    For a full gut and materials very affordable id say? Thanks for sharing can you break down specific costs of just the tile shower& base for us? $3500=3 weeks???

    I find T&M a hard sell, mostly clients want the end price upfront. Being thorough in discussions i bring up a myriad of
    Possible unforseens that may be lurking! Cover your ass as they say!
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2014
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