Centrifugal sand filter/CSV questions

Discussion in 'Pumps and Tanks Well Forum & Blog' started by Caltrician, Mar 31, 2014.

  1. Caltrician

    Caltrician New Member

    Messages:
    7
    Location:
    California
    We have a sand problem messing up our toilet valves and raising havoc with my irrigation. The sand is not new, we've been pumping it up from our well for 10 years now, it's that we used to pump into a 5000 gal holding tank (2500 gal required by fire dept.), then used a VFD booster pump to supply water to the house and our irrigation. The holding tank acted as a sort of sediment filter, with an accumulated layer of sand in the bottom. Now because of two VFD failures we changed to have our well pump go directly to an 86 gal bladder tank, added a regular pressure switch, bypassing the holding tank setup.

    So now we get sand in everything. I've been contemplating installing a Sandmaster H20-10 centrifugal filter. I also plan on adding a CSV to the system because of too much pressure fluctuation.

    Question #1: The Sandmaster H20-10 has 3/4" inlet and outlet. The smallest pipes at the tank location are 1". Seems like the Sandmaster will restrict the flow. They say to size the filter according to the GPM. I followed their guidelines and came up with 15 GPM. Should I move up to the next size which has a 1" inlet/outlet. Do you think the flow will be restricted significantly with the 3/4"?

    Question #2: Do you think there may be any conflict between the Filter and the CSV?
  2. craigpump

    craigpump Active Member

    Messages:
    1,031
    Location:
    ct
    You would be much better off with a Lakos Sub-K seperator, they install over the pump inlet on a submersible pump and prevent that abrasive material from getting into the pump, tank and fixtures. Life of the pump is greatly extended as well because that sand isn't eating up the pump impellers and diffusers.
  3. Caltrician

    Caltrician New Member

    Messages:
    7
    Location:
    California
    I thought about that and totally agree with you, but I was weighing the cost of pulling that submersible which is 600'+ down in the well. I don't think I could do it myself, and I've already got 10 good years out of the pump. If I can solve all of my above-ground problems now and get a few more years out of the submersible, it may be more financially feasible.
    Thanks for your response.
  4. Reach4

    Reach4 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,634
    Location:
    IL
    People speak well of the Lacos TwistIIClean. http://www.twistiiclean.com/
  5. craigpump

    craigpump Active Member

    Messages:
    1,031
    Location:
    ct
    Twist 2 clean does nothing to keep the sand out of the pump and from accumulating in the tank.
  6. Tom Sawyer

    Tom Sawyer In the Trades

    Messages:
    3,265
    Location:
    Maine
    That would be my recommendation as well although in extreme sand cases I have seen the sand fill the well case right up to the pump inlet as it all falls back down during the off cycle. However, he has got 10 years out of the pump which tells me there isn't a huge sand problem. I have seen sand destroy a pump in less than. 6 months.
  7. valveman

    valveman Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    4,549
    Location:
    Lubbock, Texas
    You can use any kind of filter after the CSV. You can use a filter prior to the CSV if you check the backpressure of the pump in the well.

    Low yield well with cistern and jet pump.
    [​IMG]
  8. valveman

    valveman Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    4,549
    Location:
    Lubbock, Texas
    You can use the same Pside-Kick kit on the well pump if you want. Or you can use a Pside-Kick on both the well pump and the cistern booster pump, which can work together or separately as needed.

    Well pump and cistern booster with Pside-Kick.
    [​IMG]
  9. Reach4

    Reach4 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,634
    Location:
    IL
    You did not label the bucket. I would guess that the pipe in the cistern gets cut short enough to swap buckets. Maybe that pipe could transition to a bigger pipe a few feet above the bucket to reduce velocity and let finer sand fall into the bucket.
  10. valveman

    valveman Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    4,549
    Location:
    Lubbock, Texas
    The bucket with a couple of inches of concrete in the bottom is just a way to hold a PVC pipe for attaching and adjusting the float switch.
  11. Caltrician

    Caltrician New Member

    Messages:
    7
    Location:
    California
    Wow! Lots of info to absorb here.

    Thank you all so much. You guys and an event last night have caused me to re-think this whole thing.

    First, had I known anything about pumps/wells/etc ten years ago I would have protected the well pump as Craig suggested. I think for right now I'm going to leave well enough alone, mainly because my experience each time I fix something, I find more stuff that needs fixing.

    last night I was trying to clean out a deck drain with a hose--on full blast. I got a second hose from a completely separate feed to try to use at the opposite end of the drain and got a very weak stream of water. My conclusion is that my well doesn't produce the amount of water I thought it did. When they drilled the well they said it produced 6.5 GPM. It's got a 1-1/2 HP submersible sized for that GPM. I'm going by memory here so bear with me. I can't find my pump info presently--that's today's chore. So the submersible filled up the 5000 gal holding tank (cistern?) at it's own pace, and I'm thinking that was slow. The booster pump provided all the volume and pressure I could desire and I had a few thousand gallons available for my use. So regardless of what I do directly from the well, without a booster pump, I'm still not going to get adequate volume or pressure.

    Valveman, your first diagram is exactly what I had originally, less the Pside-kick kit. I had a 1-1/2 HP VFD with a 2+/- gal tank. I was very happy with it--until it quit!

    Now I'm thinking perhaps I should go back to the original design. Any opinions about that?
  12. valveman

    valveman Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    4,549
    Location:
    Lubbock, Texas
    The storage cistern does let you have more water for peak demands. The CSV will give you the same performance as the VFD, just without the added expense, complications, and short life expectancy.

    I still don't understand why a high static water level and the pump set at 600' doesn't give a few hundred gallons of storage to work with.
  13. Caltrician

    Caltrician New Member

    Messages:
    7
    Location:
    California
    The static water level was said to be 20 ft when the submersible was installed. I don't know what it actually is. I don't think there is any problem with the "amount" of water available and I don't think it has ever pumped down all the way. Regardless, I think I'll put the well pump back to filling the storage tank, then a booster pump and a CSV. Now I just need to figure out sizes. I don't know if I can figure out my irrigation demand. Can I get a clue from the previous VFD booster?? How do I figure that out?
  14. valveman

    valveman Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    4,549
    Location:
    Lubbock, Texas
    The pump will still be the same size using a CSV or a VFD. Do you have any model numbers from the old pump?
  15. Caltrician

    Caltrician New Member

    Messages:
    7
    Location:
    California
    Goulds 2AB22HM1F2EO
    It's an Aquaboost II I think--Kit
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2014
  16. valveman

    valveman Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    4,549
    Location:
    Lubbock, Texas
    That shows to be a 1.5HP pump. Goulds still makes a long lasting jet pump. You just don’t want to shorten the life by controlling it with a VFD. A regular J15S Goulds jet pump with a CSV1A like in the Pside-Kick kit will give you constant pressure and last a long time.

    Jet pump with Pside-Kick
    [​IMG]
  17. Caltrician

    Caltrician New Member

    Messages:
    7
    Location:
    California
    Thanks Valveman. I'd just like to confirm one more thing regarding a sand filter.

    The submersible will be pumping directly into the holding tank, and the larger sand will settle there. I think it might still be a good idea to put a filter between the holding tank and the booster (jet) pump. Since the supply for the booster pump is the tank, will there be any considerations to putting the filter before the CSV?
  18. valveman

    valveman Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    4,549
    Location:
    Lubbock, Texas
    Keep your suction line for the booster pump a little bit off the bottom of the storage tank. Don't put a filter on the suction of the booster as that is too much restriction. But you can put a filter after the CSV if you want.
  19. nhmaster3015

    nhmaster3015 Master Plumber

    Messages:
    836
    Location:
    The granite state
    So let me get this straight. You have a 1-1/2hp pump set at 600' with a 20' static and the well produces 6.5 gpm, and, you have a 5000 gallon storage cistern. It appears to me that you should have enough volume in the well that you don't need the cistern at all unless you are using a whole lot of water.
  20. nhmaster3015

    nhmaster3015 Master Plumber

    Messages:
    836
    Location:
    The granite state
    It should give him close to 300 gallons to work with. I'm wondering what the point of the cistern is? The lack of pressure though is probably the ravages of sand and time on the pump impellers.
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