CSV considerations for my old system

[Tubby]

TLDR: I am interested in installing a CSV, and this has prompted me to take a closer look at my system. Apparently, I will need to increase my pressure setting to use a CSV; this I have concerns about, not knowing the possible consequences. Any insights are welcome.

The components are old, but everything is currently working properly and cycling as expected. The system was already in place when I acquired the property 13 years ago. The water source is a spring in a ravine and is enclosed in a structure with the pump. All other equipment is in the basement of the house.

The pump is a 3-wire, 3/4-HP, 230-volt submersible, dated 2002, and positioned horizontally in a couple of feet of water. (It's probably a Franklin Electric, which is the label on the power supply box in the basement.) Based on a modern pump (Everbilt) of the same specs, I presume the following is the same:

-Designed for wells up to 100 ft. to 150 ft. deep
-Pumps 10 GPM
-Includes built-in check valve

Aside from the pump's own coarse screen, there is nothing to stop small debris or stirred sediment (dirty water) from going into the system. It happens, for example, when a deer crashes through the roof (see tarp above).

The pressure tank in the home's basement is a bladder type, 36 gallons, with a maximum pressure of 100 PSIG. I don't know how old it is, but it's a Wellsaver brand that apparently is now A. O. Smith.

There is no pressure relief valve (unless it's under the tank, which wouldn't make sense). I assume I should correct this. There is also no tank drain valve (which I suppose would provide a more complete emptying for pressure measurement).

The pressure switch is set at 30-50 psi. But, from the calculators on the CSV website, it seems there are no CSVs designed for my pressure range. 40-60 seems to be the minimum.

I do not know why the pressure switch is set to 30-50. I can only guess this was selected for one or more of the following reasons:

1) The flow rate of the spring itself? It is possible to empty the spring temporarily by continuous use for a long time, but this never happens with normal use.

2) The long distance to the house? The estimated distance between the pump and the house is 530 feet. The line rises out of the ravine with an elevation gain (depth) of about 20 feet at the highest point (around 380 feet) and then follows the land downward toward the house (falling about 5 feet).

3) To save electricity?

4) To provide more tank drawdown (9.89 versus 8.57 gallons)?

Beyond the pressure increase, I wonder how the old pump and pressure tank will respond to the new frequency/runtime dynamics that a CSV will impose. I have this superstition that old, worn, working machines don't like it when you make changes. I also wonder about the old electric water heater, and how it might respond to higher pressure.

Then there is the PVC line itself. It is old and has already demonstrated some brittleness in exposed portions. I would not want to deal with a break somewhere in the long, buried line.

Clearly, I don't fully understand the dynamics of all this.

 

[Valveman]

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Clearly, I don't fully understand the dynamics of all this.

But you are getting close and going in the right direction. Lol! You don't have to increase the pressure to use a CSV. The most common pressure switch setting these days is 40/60, but you can have 30/50, 20/40, or even 10/30 if you want. But I think increasing from 30/50 to 40/60 would be good as you have a lot of elevation which will cause loss of pressure up the hill. A 3.4HP, 10 GPM pump can build about 120 PSI, which is how much pressure will be on the line going from the Pump to the CSV. But after the CSV the pressure will be no higher than 60 PSI if you use a 40/60 switch setting. If you get the PK1ALT it will have a new pressure switch, gauge, pressure relief valve, and a place to put a 3/4 faucet, along with the CSV1A. You can just remove the brass check valve you have now, replace it with the CSV1A and all the stuff fits onto the CSV1A.

PK1A-LT Constant Pressure Pump Control Kit (Less Tank) – Cycle Stop Valves, Inc

Buy It! Interactive Animation Replace a big pressure tank with a Pside-Kick General Information Typical Applications Specifications Installation Instructions Troubleshooting VFD Controller Replacement WARNING: This product can expose you to chemicals including nickel, which is known to the...

cyclestopvalves.com

 

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[Tubby]

But you are getting close and going in the right direction. Lol! You don't have to increase the pressure to use a CSV. The most common pressure switch setting these days is 40/60, but you can have 30/50, 20/40, or even 10/30 if you want. But I think increasing from 30/50 to 40/60 would be good as you have a lot of elevation which will cause loss of pressure up the hill. A 3.4HP, 10 GPM pump can build about 120 PSI, which is how much pressure will be on the line going from the Pump to the CSV. But after the CSV the pressure will be no higher than 60 PSI if you use a 40/60 switch setting. If you get the PK1ALT it will have a new pressure switch, gauge, pressure relief valve, and a place to put a 3/4 faucet, along with the CSV1A. You can just remove the brass check valve you have now, replace it with the CSV1A and all the stuff fits onto the CSV1A.

PK1A-LT Constant Pressure Pump Control Kit (Less Tank) – Cycle Stop Valves, Inc

Buy It! Interactive Animation Replace a big pressure tank with a Pside-Kick General Information Typical Applications Specifications Installation Instructions Troubleshooting VFD Controller Replacement WARNING: This product can expose you to chemicals including nickel, which is known to the...

cyclestopvalves.com

I didn't know that brass piece is a check valve. I guess it's redundant with the one in the pump. Not good to have them both, I gather.

The 120 psi back pressure along the outside line would concern me, given that both times the PVC broke it was in the outside line (once near where it enters the house and once where it connects to the pump). Based on the web site animation, that would be doubling the current back pressure.

 

[Valveman]

I didn't know that brass piece is a check valve. I guess it's redundant with the one in the pump. Not good to have them both, I gather.

The 120 psi back pressure along the outside line would concern me, given that both times the PVC broke it was in the outside line (once near where it enters the house and once where it connects to the pump). Based on the web site animation, that would be doubling the current back pressure.

I am sure the PVC pipe is rated for well above 200 PSI. The burst pressure of pipe is 2-5 times the rated pressure, so your pump cannot build enough back pressure to hurt the pipe. The pipe was spilt because of that extra check valve at the tank. That second check valve gives the water from the pump something to crash into a second after pump start. When water crashes into that second check valve is causes a water hammer spike pressure that is several times more than the pump can even build. Removing that check valve is the best thing you can do for the pipe, the back pressure from a CSV will not hurt anything.

Adding a CSV to an old pump system can do nothing about the abuse the pump has survived in the past. But it can stop the abuse from cycling or water hammer the instant it is installed. Adding back pressure is how to test a pump/motor. If adding the CSV causes the amps to increase, the thrust bearing in the motor is already bad. If the CSV causes the amps to decrease, the thrust bearing in the motor is still good and the CSV will prevent any further damage. Water heater won't see any extra pressure from adding a CSV. Water hammer from the second check valve will also damage a water heater. But increasing the pressure switch setting from 30/50 to 40/60 should not hurt a thing.

If the motor is still good adding a CSV will prevent any further damage. If the motor bearing is bad, the CSV will be the test and you just as well fix it now instead of when it quits, which will be very soon and at the most inconvenient time.

 

[Tubby]

I am sure the PVC pipe is rated for well above 200 PSI. The burst pressure of pipe is 2-5 times the rated pressure, so your pump cannot build enough back pressure to hurt the pipe. The pipe was spilt because of that extra check valve at the tank. That second check valve gives the water from the pump something to crash into a second after pump start. When water crashes into that second check valve is causes a water hammer spike pressure that is several times more than the pump can even build. Removing that check valve is the best thing you can do for the pipe, the back pressure from a CSV will not hurt anything.

Adding a CSV to an old pump system can do nothing about the abuse the pump has survived in the past. But it can stop the abuse from cycling or water hammer the instant it is installed. Adding back pressure is how to test a pump/motor. If adding the CSV causes the amps to increase, the thrust bearing in the motor is already bad. If the CSV causes the amps to decrease, the thrust bearing in the motor is still good and the CSV will prevent any further damage. Water heater won't see any extra pressure from adding a CSV. Water hammer from the second check valve will also damage a water heater. But increasing the pressure switch setting from 30/50 to 40/60 should not hurt a thing.

If the motor is still good adding a CSV will prevent any further damage. If the motor bearing is bad, the CSV will be the test and you just as well fix it now instead of when it quits, which will be very soon and at the most inconvenient time.

Thanks for the info. The original PVC that exits the spring house is 320psi, so I assume it's the same all the way to the house.

I do not know for a fact whether the pump has its own check valve. Here is a photo of the recently installed connection to the pump.

I am looking at replacing the pump soon, as it is supposedly 22 years old. The well guy I'm talking to is a Schaefer dealer and sells them for $1000 and change. He says they have a long service life (20+ yrs).

The well guy also says that it's usually possible to eliminate the need for a CSV (eliminate unnecessary cycling) by carefully tuning the tank size and pressure settings, both of which would need to increase. He is not against the CSV in general.

 

[Valveman]

There should be a check valve poppet in that black housing the pipe is connected to. Schaefer is just another name that Franklin sells through I think. Same as Franklin. Good motors, not the best pump ends, but fine overall. You normally have to go with whatever brand the installer carries anyway.

"He is not against the CSV in general." But he doesn't love them. Is it because he doesn't understand how they work? You cannot install a large enough tank or widen the pressure switch band width enough to keep a pump from cycling on and off. The only thing you can "tune" is a sprinkler system by making every zone large enough to keep the pump from cycling.

Bigger tanks and wider pressure bandwidths are good, because they "reduce" the cycling. But completely eliminating cycling while using water is even better by an order of magnitude. Using a Cycle Stop Valve to eliminate cycling also has many other advantages. Eliminating cycling, lower amps, and the soft start/stop of a CSV saves check valves, tank bladders, pressure switches, start capacitors/relays, on top of making the pump/motor last longer. the final cherry on the top is strong constant pressure in the house and ability to use a MUCH smaller pressure tank.

A lot of pump guys do not endorse the Cycle Stop Valve because they do not understand how they work. But a lot of installers refuse to install Cycle Stop Valves BECAUSE they know how they work. Lol! I don't blame them for trying to keep the CSV a secret as it greatly cuts into repeat business.

 

[curvecrazy]

Hi. I’ve been reading for awhile but just registered.

There should be a check valve poppet in that black housing the pipe is connected to. Schaefer is just another name that Franklin sells through I think. Same as Franklin. Good motors, not the best pump ends, but fine overall. You normally have to go with whatever brand the installer carries anyway.

"He is not against the CSV in general." But he doesn't love them. Is it because he doesn't understand how they work? You cannot install a large enough tank or widen the pressure switch band width enough to keep a pump from cycling on and off. The only thing you can "tune" is a sprinkler system by making every zone large enough to keep the pump from cycling.

Bigger tanks and wider pressure bandwidths are good, because they "reduce" the cycling. But completely eliminating cycling while using water is even better by an order of magnitude. Using a Cycle Stop Valve to eliminate cycling also has many other advantages. Eliminating cycling, lower amps, and the soft start/stop of a CSV saves check valves, tank bladders, pressure switches, start capacitors/relays, on top of making the pump/motor last longer. the final cherry on the top is strong constant pressure in the house and ability to use a MUCH smaller pressure tank.

A lot of pump guys do not endorse the Cycle Stop Valve because they do not understand how they work. But a lot of installers refuse to install Cycle Stop Valves BECAUSE they know how they work. Lol! I don't blame them for trying to keep the CSV a secret as it greatly cuts into repeat business.

Hi. I’ve been reading, in your various post comments about the CSV1A. It seems to make sense. Is there a reason to use that brand specifically over, say(?) a CSV that my plumbing supply carries?

 

[Bannerman]

Is there a reason to use that brand specifically over, say(?) a CSV that my plumbing supply carries?

You're asking the inventor, manufacturer and distributor of the genuine 'Cycle Stop Valve', about the possibly of obtaining a copy-cat device, if one even exists?

 

[Valveman]

Hi. I’ve been reading for awhile but just registered.

Hi. I’ve been reading, in your various post comments about the CSV1A. It seems to make sense. Is there a reason to use that brand specifically over, say(?) a CSV that my plumbing supply carries?

Lol! A lot of pump and plumbing supply houses carry a knock off brand of the Cycle Stop Valve. They do that because they are mad at me for selling on the Internet. However, you would not know about this and they would not be selling anything like this if I was not selling and advertising on the Internet. They would prefer to keep the CSV a secret and sell big tanks, VFD's, and stuff that cost a lot more and doesn't last a long time like a real Cycle Stop Valve. Some even promote knock off CSV's because they have problems and don't work well, so they can say "I told you CSV didn't work".

Although, since my patent expired in 2013 some have been making much better copies of the CSV. Although I would prefer you had an original Cycle Stop Valve, even a good copy is better than not having one. But I don't think those pump guys would like it very much if they had been the one who came up with the idea.