Ball valve / water turn off design

Discussion in 'Plumbing Forum, Professional & DIY Advice, Tips & ' started by Fumisan, Jun 9, 2013.

  1. Fumisan

    Fumisan New Member

    Messages:
    47
    Location:
    Phoenix, Arizona
    I have an old hose bib that's leaking and I want to replace it with a ball valve. I already did the backyard with the help of folks on this site.

    http://www.terrylove.com/forums/sho...ating-brass-fitting-from-1-2-quot-copper-pipe

    Now, I'm moving to the front yard. However, the front yard is set up a little differently because it connects with the water turn off for the house as well.

    I was just going to replace the hose bib on the top, but when I got out there to do it, I realized that the gate valve was also leaking and that I probably should replace both at the same time.

    Three questions:

    1. Does the existing design look correct?

    2. This will be the first time I sweat copper to brass. Am I correct to assume that brass fittings must be heated to a much higher temperature to melt and pull the solder in?

    3. Should I pre-assemble/pre-sweat any of the connections before sweating to the existing copper pipe? (i.e., what order should I install/sweat the fittings?)

    Am I missing anything else?

    Thanks again!

    P1050023.jpg

    P1050022.jpg

    P1050028.jpg
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2013
  2. Terry

    Terry Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    15,001
    Location:
    Bothell, Washington
    That should work. A vacuum breaker on the hosebib is needed too.

    If it's more than a one bath home, I would want at least 1" from the meter to the home though.
    The 3/4" is old school. I have never plumbed in 2 house in 3/4.
  3. Fumisan

    Fumisan New Member

    Messages:
    47
    Location:
    Phoenix, Arizona
    Thanks, Terry!

    Is a vacuum breaker the same as an anti-siphon device?

    I was thinking the same thing about the 3/4" from main into house. Seemed a bit small to me. It's a 3bd/2ba 1959 home.

    I would consider changing the 3/4" to 1" from the main to the house (it's less than a 25' run), but is there any advantage to doing that if it then goes to 3/4" into the house?
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2013
  4. hj

    hj Moderator & Master Plumber Staff Member

    Messages:
    26,626
    Location:
    Cave Creek, Arizona
    pipe

    NO real advantage to increasing the pipe size. When I do what you are planning, I either use a copper x ips x copper tee and screw the hose faucet into it, or use a 3/4"x street adapter soldered directly into the copper to, so I do not need a short piece of copper tubing. You need a "hose vacuum breaker" SECURED to the faucet's outlet thread.
  5. Fumisan

    Fumisan New Member

    Messages:
    47
    Location:
    Phoenix, Arizona
    Thanks, hj. I've got to find out what you mean by "copper x ips x copper tee". I know what a copper tee is, but will check on the other.

    I am assuming the 3/4" street adapter is similar the the copper adapter I have, but that it fits directly into the tee w/o the need for a short piece of copper. Is that right? If so, that sounds better b/c it's one less solder connection.

    I will secure the hose vacuum breaker to the faucet. From what I read, it's tighten the set screw and then break it off.

    UPDATE: Ok, I think I found the copper 3/4" female street adapter.

    3/4" FTG x Female Street Adapter: http://www.pexsupply.com/Cello-WP3-2-12-3-4-FTG-x-Female-Street-Adapter-1224000-p

    3-4 inch female street adapter wp3-2-12-3.jpg
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2013
  6. Terry

    Terry Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    15,001
    Location:
    Bothell, Washington
    Copper pipe sizing

    It does matter. But if you're happy, then I'm happy too.
    You're close to being enough.
  7. hj

    hj Moderator & Master Plumber Staff Member

    Messages:
    26,626
    Location:
    Cave Creek, Arizona
    Look for a Nibco #714 tee. In this area, "millions" of homes have 3/4" main lines and they are adequate, even if they have a small irrigation system connected to it.
  8. Fumisan

    Fumisan New Member

    Messages:
    47
    Location:
    Phoenix, Arizona
    Terry, Thanks for the link. It's good to know the right way to do things. I think I am going to have to be happy at this point.

    HJ, I found the Nibco #714 online here: http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/NIBCO-Tee-5GEX8?Pid=search

    We're in the same neck of the woods. Do you know of anywhere locally where they might carry it? Ferguson, San Plumbing?

    Not cheap @ Grainger ($18.62), but I guess it will save me sweating the 3/4" female street adapter.

    Any other advantages to going with the 714 to justify the extra cost?

    1 Nibco 714 - 5GEX8_AS01.jpg
  9. Terry

    Terry Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    15,001
    Location:
    Bothell, Washington
    Much of undersized Seattle plumbed in the 1920's is considered adequate too. I started plumbing on the Eastside in the 1970's, and there we never used less than a 1" line.
    In Seattle, as long as water dripped out of the faucet they were happy. Not so on the Eastside where they became acostumed to using more than one bathroom at a time, and not having to take turns.
    A lot of it is what you have been used to. You can always get by with less if there are no expectation of it being better.
  10. hj

    hj Moderator & Master Plumber Staff Member

    Messages:
    26,626
    Location:
    Cave Creek, Arizona
    tee

    No, other than it puts the hose faucet closer to the building and out of the way.
  11. Fumisan

    Fumisan New Member

    Messages:
    47
    Location:
    Phoenix, Arizona
    They had the Nibco 714 at lowes for around $14. The female street adapter was $7 plus change, so I just went with the 714.

    Thanks for the help!
  12. hj

    hj Moderator & Master Plumber Staff Member

    Messages:
    26,626
    Location:
    Cave Creek, Arizona
    tee

    quote; The female street adapter was $7 plus change You also have to add the price of the copper tee you did not have to use which could have made the two close to the same price.
  13. Fumisan

    Fumisan New Member

    Messages:
    47
    Location:
    Phoenix, Arizona
    You're right HJ! Adding in the copper tee, they are close.

    Thanks for your help and thanks to everyone else that helps as well. This forum is invaluable.
  14. Fumisan

    Fumisan New Member

    Messages:
    47
    Location:
    Phoenix, Arizona
    Length of Pipe - Fitting vertical and horizontal sections at same time

    I think I've almost got the courage to tackle this little project. I just had a couple of questions.

    I know that the copper pipe will fit 3/4" into both sides of the 714 brass tee. But, there also looks like 3/16" to 1/4" between where the vertical pipe meets the horizontal pipe inside the tee.

    Do I have to account for that little space when cutting pipe to fit between the lower main shut off valve and the 714 brass tee?

    Also, how does one fit the brass tee onto the horizontal and vertical pipe at the same time? That one's got me stumped!
  15. hj

    hj Moderator & Master Plumber Staff Member

    Messages:
    26,626
    Location:
    Cave Creek, Arizona
    tee

    You measure how long the pipe has to be to make the tee fit properly. You put the tee onto the riser and then "flex" it into place on the pipe from the wall, possibly with some encouragement from a hammer.
  16. Fumisan

    Fumisan New Member

    Messages:
    47
    Location:
    Phoenix, Arizona
    I got the job done a few days ago, but it was just too damn hot out there to take any pictures. It's been 111 degrees!

    Anyway, thanks for all of the advice. It was my first time sweating brass to copper and I was a little nervous. There are some solder drips, but no leaks!

    P1050182.jpg
  17. wjcandee

    wjcandee Wise One

    Messages:
    1,850
    Location:
    New York, NY
    What an improvement! Nice job!
  18. Fumisan

    Fumisan New Member

    Messages:
    47
    Location:
    Phoenix, Arizona
    Thanks for the compliment! Much appreciated!
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