Anti-freeze valve

[Dberryco]

I'm pumping water up a hill and would like it to drain back when my pump is off so that the pipe doesn't freeze. Is there a mechanical valve that will do this?

I know I can drill a small hole near the pump to do the same thing, but that is not my preferred solution.

Thanks!

 

[Terry]

You can add a sillcock that can stay closed while pumping, and then open it in the Winter to drain the line down.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Valveman]

Or you can use a bleeder orifice, as it will open when the pressure is drained from the system.

 

[Dberryco]

Or you can use a bleeder orifice, as it will open when the pressure is drained from the system.

That sounds like what I'm looking for. How do you use one? I plumbed my own house so I do have some knowledge, just have never seen one before.

 

[Dberryco]

You can add a sillcock that can stay closed while pumping, and then open it in the Winter to drain the line down.

I wanted to avoid having to trudge 1000' thru snow to do that. It's at the bottom of a mountain.

 

[Ballvalve]

You just need a ballvalve with drain down orifice. I use these all over for sprinklers and summer only piping. When it is closed, a port opens to release the uphill pressure. Of course you could just tee in a hose bib as mentioned above, after the feed valve

 

[Boycedrilling]

Are you desiring an automatic pipe drain down system, or is a manually operated drain acceptable?

If you want an automatic system, you would need a normally open solenoid valve. When the Pump runs, it closes. When the pump shuts off, it opens and allow the line to drain. You would then need an air vent at the top of the pipe line to allow air in when it drains, and to allow the air back out when the pump turns on. Just upstream from the air vent, you would need a check valve. If you have enough elevation from the Pump location to the house, you might not get enough of a pressure drop to get a bleeder orifice to work

 

[Valveman]

If you have enough elevation from the Pump location to the house, you might not get enough of a pressure drop to get a bleeder orifice to work

Like Boyce says, a regular bleeder will not work with more than about 10' of water standing above it. When is sees less than 5 PSI (11'' of water elevation) the ball in the bleeder will fall and let the water drain our automatically. We use them is weekend cabins and things so when people get ready to leave, they just turn off power to the pump and open a faucet. When the faucet drains all the water out of the pressure tank and the pressure on the bleeder is less than 5 PSI, it opens and drains back as the air enters the open faucet. It will usually drain back all the lines from the faucet to the bleeder.

They make spring loaded bleeders that will open at 10 PSI or 23', so they can be set lower in elevation.
http://www.flomatic.com/valves/check-valves/auto-drain-valve/index.asp?valveid=170

If the bleed point will have more than 23' of water elevation above it, you will need to manually open a valve or use the solenoid like Boyce described.

 

[Dberryco]

I'm pumping water thru a 500' feet of black plastic 3/4" pipe up a hill with 100' of elevation. In the summer, it works just fine leaving the water in the pipe, but in winter it would freeze.

Based on what you guys are saying, it looks like I can T the pipe near the pump with a "normally open" 220V valve. When I turn the pump on, the valve will close and allow the water to go up hill. When the pump is off, the pipe will drain. I found one on the net for 35 bucks and it sounds like the wiring and plumbing will be about an hour of work to permanently solve my issue.

Ideally, I would dig an 8' deep trench and bury the pipe, but it is so steep in places I can't get my back-hoe in and our soil is not soil, it's rock so hand digging is almost impossible.

If I've got it wrong, let me know. Otherwise, thanks all!!!

 

[Valveman]

By George I think you've got it! Drain back systems like that are common when the pipe cannot be buried below the frost line. The problem is you will have to push that air out every time you start the system, and filling the line fast like that could cause breaks in the pipe.

 

[Dberryco]

By George I think you've got it! Drain back systems like that are common when the pipe cannot be buried below the frost line. The problem is you will have to push that air out every time you start the system, and filling the line fast like that could cause breaks in the pipe.

Cool. This is auxiliary water for washing the vehicles, watering the plants or to fill up hot tubs and such. Hasn't been a big deal, but it's nice to have a 2nd source of water.

 

[LLigetfa]

Based on what you guys are saying, it looks like I can T the pipe near the pump with a "normally open" 220V valve. When I turn the pump on, the valve will close and allow the water to go up hill. When the pump is off, the pipe will drain. I found one on the net for 35 bucks and it sounds like the wiring and plumbing will be about an hour of work to permanently solve my issue.

You need more than that. At the top you need a check valve with snifter to let in air at the very least along with a hydro-pneumatic tank with AVC to expel all the air from the 100 feet of pipe, or you need a purpose built air separator.

 

[Valveman]

You need more than that. At the top you need a check valve with snifter to let in air at the very least along with a hydro-pneumatic tank with AVC to expel all the air from the 100 feet of pipe, or you need a purpose built air separator.

Air vent/vac valve up top would be my choice. You got to let the water out when the line fills and in when it drains.

 

[LLigetfa]

Also, you don't mention what you have for a pump. When a pump starts without any back pressure, it runs off the curve and the high GPM could create an upthrust condition that could wear the impellers. Having a system that drains back 100 feet of pipe on every cycle regardless of whether it needs to or not will consume more electricity that needed and could shorten the life of the pump.

 

[LLigetfa]

You got to let the water out when the line fills and in when it drains.

You got to let the air out when the line fills and in when it drains.

 

[Boycedrilling]

In the early 80’s I installed an irrigation system for a project that pumped 4500 gpm up a hill. We had three 300 hp, 1500 gpm pumps in wells. They went into a common 16” pipeline up the hill to a 40,000 gallon reservior. Three more identical pumps in that reservior pumping on up the hill to the next reservior. From that reservior there was 1 zone that was gravity flow from that reservior. The second sone was same elevation as the reservoir, it had a centrifugal Pump that pressurized it. Then there were two more 300 hp pumps to pump up hill to a third reservoir. That reservoir provided pressure to the 3rd elevation zone. So I had 8 identical 300 hp pumps. They turned on and off automatically to keep the reservoirs full.

Each pump had a 4” Cla-Val Pump control valve on it. This was a normally open valve. When a pump got the signal to turn on, it was pumping against a closed check valve and the open Cla-Val. The cla-Val would slowly close and the water pressure would slowly build, open the check valve and pump water up hill. When the pump got the signal to shut off, the reverse would happen. The Cla-Val would slowly open over about 90 seconds or so. That would slowly reduce the velocity of the water in the pipeline and almost completely eliminate water hammer or surge in the pipeline. Only once the Cla-Val was completely open, would the Pump shut off.

On initial startup, we were adjusting valves at the intermediate reservior. We had a shut down with out the Cla-Val working. You could see the pressure drop about 25 psi in the pipeline on the pressure gauge. Then the 50 psi overpressure return wave shock blew the 16” pipeline apart at a 45 degree elbow just above the reservior. The thrust block wasnt big enough.

 

[Valveman]

You got to let the air out when the line fills and in when it drains.

 

[Dberryco]

You need more than that. At the top you need a check valve with snifter to let in air at the very least along with a hydro-pneumatic tank with AVC to expel all the air from the 100 feet of pipe, or you need a purpose built air separator.

The top is just a garden hose and it currently drains just fine when I open the manual valve at the bottom. I'm just trying to save having to drive or trudge down the hill every time I need water.

 

[Boycedrilling]

An automatic air vent would be mandatory at the top elevation of your line. Otherwise there is the potential to suck your pipe flat from vacuum. I’ve seen it happen.