Timer Installation

[CommanderDave]

I'd like to know if it possible to install a 240 volt ST01 timer in the diagram below. The timer wiring is:
Black - Line
Blue - Load
Red - 3 way (not used)
Green - ground

This is where I'd like to install it - replacing the bypass switch. I'm unclear how to do the installation since it is 240v with 2 hots and no neutral. Do I have to make the connection through the contactor (which is already wired to the pressure tank switch) ? The bypass switch is used in the spring time to directly run the well pump continuously to fill the pond, bypassing the pressure tank and contactor. I want to be able to do the same with the timer (on continuous) but then also have the timer functions available in late spring time to only run at night. When there is no threat of freezing I will shut down the ST01 timer and run a hydrant with a mechanical timer and the pressure tank/switch.

 

[Valveman]

Using a timer or bypassing the pressure switch is usually not a good idea on a system with a pressure tank/pressure switch. It is important that a valve big enough to keep the pressure from increasing is opened when the pressure switch is bypassed in anyway. It is obvious that you are trying to prevent the pump from cycling on and off when filling the pond or other long term uses of water. It would be much better to just use a Cycle Stop Valve on the well pump. With a CSV you can fill a pond, run sprinklers, or use water at any flow rate and for any length of time you want and the pump will not cycle.

I could help you with wiring the timer but don't really want to help with something that could be hazardous to the pump and system.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[CommanderDave]

I understand your response. However, the pond pressure tank was just recently installed. Prior to that the pond well pump was just in a on/off status; either turned on using the bypass switch at the well head panel, or via a ST01 timer installed in the house basement electric panel connected to a 15amp breaker and sending power via a 12ga wire underground to the contactor in the well control panel. If I were to now install the timer at the well head panel I would turn power Off to the pressure tank switch, until I'm ready to start using the pond hydrants. If I were to go with a CSV now the large (expensive) pressure tank I installed would be over kill (It is the same size as the existing tank that services the house via another domestic well). But, if installing a timer under the existing configuration is too dangerous then I will just go with using the bypass switch as is (again turning the pressure switch Off). My plan is once past freezing temps I will install a mechanical timer on one of the hydrants (pressure tank switch On) so I can run water to the pond overnight during the summer to keep ahead of evaporation.

 

[Fitter30]

 

[Valveman]

Even though a large pressure tank is overkill when using a CSV, it will still work fine. The CSV would just make everything automatic and not have to flip any switches. If you also restrict the flow to the pond manually or with a pressure sustain valve, filling the pond would not effect the water to the house. Even the pond fill valve can be automated. I find the less I have to remember to do, the less likely I am to mess something up.

But post a picture of the timer wiring diagram and someone can probably help with that.
Lol! Fitter beat me to it.

 

[CommanderDave]

I have 2 separate pressure tanks, one for the house well, and one for the pond well.

 

[CommanderDave]

Using a timer or bypassing the pressure switch is usually not a good idea on a system with a pressure tank/pressure switch. It is important that a valve big enough to keep the pressure from increasing is opened when the pressure switch is bypassed in anyway. It is obvious that you are trying to prevent the pump from cycling on and off when filling the pond or other long term uses of water. It would be much better to just use a Cycle Stop Valve on the well pump. With a CSV you can fill a pond, run sprinklers, or use water at any flow rate and for any length of time you want and the pump will not cycle.

I could help you with wiring the timer but don't really want to help with something that could be hazardous to the pump and system.

So in my configuration the cycle stop valve would have to be mounted at the wellhead, since the pond pressure tank is located in my home's basement, which does not have an in and outflow, it's just monitoring pressure. How does the CSV help me with the issue of running the well constantly for weeks at a time, and then wanting to also have a timer? Isn't it best to run a pump constantly rather than cycling on and off?

 

[Valveman]

When water is being used it is always best for the pump to run continuously instead of cycling on and off, even if that means the pump doesn't shut off for days, weeks, even years. The CSV will keep the pump running continuously as long as more than 1 GPM is being used. There is no need for a timer. The CSV just will not let the pump shut off until all the water taps are closed.

But now I am confused that you say you have 2 pressure tanks and 2 pumps? The CSV also works well with systems that have multiple pumps. Just a slight staggering of the pressure settings makes multiple pumps work together or alone as needed.

 

[CommanderDave]

I do have two tanks, one for the house and one for the pond. However, they are plumbed together with a shutoff valve in the event one fails I can still have water flow.

As I see it whether I have a standard pressure tank or CSV the pump is still going to cycle a lot when I'm running continuously, although I understand there is some evergy savings with the CSV.

This is the reason I want a timer: In early Spring I run the pond well pump continuously to fill the 1 acre pond that is usually down about 2-3 feet over winter. I then only want to run it overnight to keep ahead of any evaporation, otherwise it's a waste of water/energy if the pond is now full. I do have a mechanical timer that I intend to install on one pond hydrant to run the well overnight in the summer. However, I can't install that until there is NO more threat of an overnight freeze, so I'd like to have a digital timer to run the well overnight until I'm ready to switch everything over to the pressure tank and hydrant timer. In lieu of that, I'd have to go down to the pond well head every night and morning to turn it on and off.

I still don't understand CSV configuration for my application. Every diagram I see has a water inlet from the well to the CSV and a water outlet to service. The diagram above only shows two CSV's servicing the house. If the CSV is to be placed between the pump and the service then it would need to be installed at the well head between the pump and the hydrant since the pond pressure tank in the basement does not have such a water flow - there is only one inlet water line coming into the pressure tank from the pond well so it is only measuring pressure and then turning the well pump on/off remotely via a connection to the contactor at the well control panel. Lastly, wouldn't the CSV at the well head be subject to freezing?

 

[Valveman]

I still do not understand if you have two pumps or just two pressure tanks? I also do not understand why you don't have to go to the pond to open or close the pond fill valve? How does turning the pump on with a timer at the house make water start filling the pond?

When running water continuously, the CSV will keep the pump running continuously. There will be no cycling, not even one cycle, the pump just keeps running. But without the CSV the pump could cycle hundreds of times.

There is also no energy savings from a CSV the same as there are no energy savings with a VFD. The pump is as efficient as it can be made, and making it pump efficiently means using the GPM that is close to the best efficiency point for that pump.

The CSV is no more likely to freeze than any of the other pipe on the well head.

 

[Valveman]

From the drawing it looks like the pipe tees at the well head with one pipe going to the pressure tank and the other going to the pond fill hydrant. If that is the case the CSV would need to be installed before the lines tee at the well head.

If the tee is the well head, the CSV can be installed in the well just below the well seal, so it is prior to the tee to the pressure tank.

 

[CommanderDave]

"I still do not understand if you have two pumps or just two pressure tanks?"
I have two wells each with their own pumps, one for the house and one for the pond with their own pressure tanks."

"I also do not understand why you don't have to go to the pond to open or close the pond fill valve?"
I have to keep the pond hydrants closed in the winter so they don't freeze. When I decide to fill the pond in early spring I open the one hydrant next to the pond for filling. I can usually leave it open (whether running or not) without worrying about it freezing as that takes very cold conditions. So, if the hydrant is open all Spring and Summer I can run it off/on via a switch at the well head or on a timer without making trips to open/close it...or by my summer plan to install a mechanical timer on the hydrant and running water via the pressure tank.

"How does turning the pump on with a timer at the house make water start filling the pond?"
Turning on a timer at the house (previously) turned the pump on via a wired connection to a contactor at the well control panel.

If the CSV is installed at the well head it needs to be either in an insulated heated building or deep underground otherwise it would freeze if above ground...correct?...I'm assuming it holds water inside when not running.
All the lines at the pond well are underground. The only thing above ground is the hydrant, which needs to be shutoff in winter so it drains out and does not freeze. If a CSV is installed there and plumbed above ground I think it would need to have a bleed valve. If there is room for the CSV to be installed directly on top of the well under the well cap then I'd like to see that configuration and whether or not it would drain out any water inside when the well is not running.

 

[Valveman]

If you have a pitless adapter and all the pipes are below the frost level, the CSV would need to be installed IN THE WELL, before the tee to the hydrant, like the drawing in post #11.

So again, how do you fill the pond with a timer and not have to open and close the frost free hydrant?

 

[CommanderDave]

I keep the handle for the hydrant open from early Spring through end of Summer, that's how I used to run water through it with a timer located in the house basement connected to a contactor at the well control panel. The timer turns the contactor on to pump water, and turns the pump off to stop running water. I don't know how else to explain the fact I do not have to manually keep opening and closing the hydrant (unless I (sic) don't have a timer).

The water line from the pond well exits from the well in a single line to the hydrant with a Tee off to the pressure tank (the Tee is on that single feeder line to the hydrant, the Tee is not the well head). So, if I understand correctly, the line would have to be dug up and a CSV installed underground before the line Tees to the pressure tank, between the Tee and the Well. It would have to be installed in a pit in order to service it. That's too much expense and work. And it still doesn't solve the timer issue.

All I really wanted to know was how to wire a ST01 timer in place of the Bypass Switch in the diagram I posted at the top of this posting, but my question has taken on a life of it's own.

 

[Valveman]

If you leave the hydrant open all the time and just turn the pump off with the timer, how does the house have any water until you close the hydrant and turn the pump back on? Just trying to help you solve the problem without being out of water in the house. If you don't mind all the water being off in the house, the timer will work fine.

Iowa frost level is too deep for a pit or valve box. The CSV would need to be installed in the well below the pitless adapter.

 

[CommanderDave]

As I keep saying I have two wells, each with their own pressure tank, one for the house and one for the pond. The pond well and pressure tank have nothing to do with getting water to the house, which has it's own independent well. The pond well only services the pond, the house well only services the house.

Does a CSV operate as a timer?...because that's all I want. What I don't want is to go through all the time and expense of installing a CSV inside the well when it doesn't solve my desire to have the well capable of being controlled on/off by a timer.

 

[Valveman]

Finally! So you do have two wells. That would have been nice to know a couple days ago. Yes, use a timer on the well DEDICATED to the pond. Your drawing never showed a second well, and you didn't answer that question until just NOW. I also never saw a wiring diagram for the timer? Garbage in, garbage out! Lol!

 

[CommanderDave]

10:22 am today
Valveman "I still do not understand if you have two pumps or just two pressure tanks?"
10:44 am today
My Response: "I have two wells each with their own pumps, one for the house and one for the pond with their own pressure tanks."
Just taking out the garbage. Lol.
This thread is officially CLOSED. I will figure out how to wire a timer myself.

 

[Valveman]

10:22 am today
Valveman "I still do not understand if you have two pumps or just two pressure tanks?"
10:44 am today
My Response: "I have two wells each with their own pumps, one for the house and one for the pond with their own pressure tanks."
Just taking out the garbage. Lol.
This thread is officially CLOSED. I will figure out how to wire a timer myself.

Lol! I must apologize! In my defense I am only working on about 50 different water systems in different stages of completion or repair at this very minute. You gave me a lot of information I didn't need, and I missed that one piece of very important information that I did need.

I was trying to help you make the one well do multiple jobs, which is kind f what I do. Now that I am caught up I would be glad to help with your timer. Just need a wiring diagram. Did I miss that as well?

Also, can show you an easy way to have a timer, be able to schedule on or off, see graphs of energy use, and several other things as well as be able to do all this from your phone. If you have Wifi available and want to know, I can show you the 25 dollar switch I am using on my wells at the moment.

Also, had my granddaughter all night and didn't get much sleep, so sorry to be a grouchy old man!

 

[CommanderDave]

No worries. This is what I originally posted. I have a ST01 timer on hand.
Black - Line
Blue - Load
Red - 3 way (not used)
Green - ground

I don't have a diagram because, well, that's what I'm trying to figure out. And how I can install it in place of the bypass switch in this diagram, and whether or not it needs to go through the contactor...while still maintaining the pressure switch connections.