WaterGroup 185UF

[Eric Wesson]

I'd been searching for an upflow softener head for a long time. Not because I have any real need for it, but I like the elegance of upflow. I'd gotten very used to the Fleck 5600 head, and come to understand softener functioning pretty well. This softener head showed up on eBay.

and I bought it.

I checked with WaterGroup's tech support regarding who made the guts of it. They said it's a Fleck 5600 body. I guess WaterGroup wrote the software and made the housing and electronics.

I explored the setup and features. It's interesting. By far the most significant aspect is that it offers variable brining.

It ships with a large range of jets and DLFC's and so forth. Notably they are not butyl rubber, which degrades in all the municipal water supplies I've used.

I get the feeling Watergroup never quite got off the ground. The software even has a typo in it. Also one of the settings, which is for a rinse override (meaning if it sits unused for X days, the tank will be flushed out), is labeled Regens, not Days. The paper manual has obsolete information in it - they switched meter flow rates and didn't bother to change the manuals with the heads - rather, they just started printing "if the meter has a gray wire, put this value in for the meter ratio". Several features are unexplained.

WaterGroup's tech support is ... well, they quickly got tired of answering questions, particularly when I asked them why the meter ratio seemed off when I compared it to a measured flow rate. It's too bad; it's a nifty head and system, much more configurable and informative, and user-friendly, than Fleck's offerings.

It seems like a solid unit with a sophisticated control system. Any questions, fire away.

 

[ditttohead]

LOL, I doubt it is a Fleck 5600. The bypass is a Canture, typically made in China. It may look like one but... And elegance of upflow? Not quite understanding that one but... Some of the original automatic softener valves were "upflow regen", not by choice but because of simplicity. On paper upflow is "amazing" in reality it poses far more problems than it is typically worth. It has it's place but in general it has been shunned by most companies except for those desperate for some more marketing lingo in their literature. I do training on both upflow and downflow, I can train on how either one is better than the other depending on my target audience, but in all reality, the vast majority of commercial and industrial units are downflow for a reason.

Don't be fooled by the marketing hype of upflow, counter current regen etc... Variable brining, I have worked on it for years, what most people fail to realize is that it is only effective when systems are a single tank design and severely undersized. Even then, the perceived efficiency gains are completely offset by the fact that we usually program in a "heavy" regen every few regeneration cycles to make up for the problems encountered with the inherent flaws in the design.

How is it more sophisticated and configurable than an XTR2? Have you looked into the diagnostics capabilities of the Clack WS1? Even the simple Fleck LXT has an impressive diagnostics capabilities and amazing efficiency. All that bein said, I am still of the belief that a softener should be a major appliance that you set, forget, and enjoy. We have Bluetooth, wifi, phone apps and the like for our units, none of these features get used by 99% of the end users after the first month.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Eric Wesson]

lol I get it, I'm protestant, you're catholic

Did Gary Slusser get embedded in y'all's brains? This isn't personal; it's a frickin water treatment appliance that's best forgotten about. I happen to like the technology and science behind it.

LOL, I doubt it is a Fleck 5600. The bypass is a Canture, typically made in China. It may look like one but...

Here it is from the side. It reminds me of the 7000, with the red pull clips to hold the fittings in.

Below is the older 5600 it replaces. Different, but - is it changes to the model? I don't know.

I dunno, it looks plenty solid to me. Copy? How would I know? Y'all who are the experts could help, maybe.

upflow is "amazing" in reality it poses far more problems than it is typically worth.

What are those problems? Help a brother out.

the vast majority of commercial and industrial units are downflow for a reason

If I did what the vast majority of what people do, I wouldn't have had anywhere near the fun.

How many time-based units are out there? People hadn't busted out of that box. Metered is way better, but the softener salesman doesn't care how much salt you have to buy. Heck, he may even sell you the salt.

My guess is commercial and industrial units are set to high salt/cf, so as to get very soft water and very high capacity - and they get salt delivered by the pallet. I hate buying salt.

inherent flaws in the design

Which are what? I get, channeling. Is it because you get resin at the top that gets fouled by inadequate replenishment?

How is it more sophisticated and configurable than an XTR2? Have you looked into the diagnostics capabilities of the Clack WS1? Even the simple Fleck LXT has an impressive diagnostics capabilities and amazing efficiency. All that bein said, I am still of the belief that a softener should be a major appliance that you set, forget, and enjoy. We have Bluetooth, wifi, phone apps and the like for our units, none of these features get used by 99% of the end users after the first month.

1) I have no idea.
2) No.
3) Fair enough. I haven't seen any features on this thing that I would rule out using, though, so they're interesting to have, if poorly documented, as I noted.

I'm not trying to tell others what to do. I found an oddball softener head on eBay and gave it a shot, sharing with you all my experience thus far. It would be dumb of me to tell others to buy one, because they come up for sale never.

 

[ditttohead]

Definitely not a real Fleck, that is obvious. As to why upflow vs downflow... this is an hour longs minimum training session, on paper upflow sounds amazing, in the real world, not so much.

7000? Not sure how you get that to remind you of a 7000, lol. The 7000 was a beast of a valve that had massive flow rates, including an amazing backwash rate, highly adaptable with either the SXT, NXT or XTR electronics. Just because of the red clips... actually the 7000 switched to blue clips many years ago prior to its discontinuation for the updated 5800/5810/5812 series which replaced it. Here is an old rebuild tutorial on the 7000.

Gary... you must be reading some very old posts, As to commercial units being set to certain salt amounts, many are set to ultra efficient settings for applications where hardness reduction is important but certainly not critical and minimizing salt usage make financial and environmental sense. A simple example of this would be pre-treating a commercial reverse osmosis system that simple anti-scalant injection is not adequate. Slightly higher salt settings with a twin alternating or progressive flow system are used for more critical applications where the efficiency gains vs. additional equipment cost and additional water usage are simply not worth it and a few extra pounds of salt every month makes more sense. A common example of this would be a restaurant dish washer. High salt setting softeners are usually pre-treated with an ultra efficient twin alternating softener so as to reduce the excessive waste that high salt settings create. Steam boilers requiring less than 1-3 ppm hardness are a good example of this.

Hope this helps.

 

[Eric Wesson]

Um. Okay. Not terribly surprised if the tech fudged the reply. Uses the same o-rings, etc? I'm just saying what the guy told me.

I bought a 7000 in 2009, had the red clips. So that's ten years. Is that "many years ago" in the softener industry?

I still haven't seen word one about why upflow regen is so bad in practice - just claims that it is. I guess it would take too long for you to explain it to someone as stupid as lil ol me.

But that's beside the point. I didn't start this thread to argue about one thing versus another. I bought an interesting head for $120 on eBay and am sharing the experience. I'm really not going to be heartbroken if it turns out to be junk. I'm not telling anyone to buy it, because they aren't readily available anyway. I'm not going to throw away this softener head because you're making fun of me for not knowing what EVERYONE ALREADY KNOWS, that UPFLOW BAD DOWNFLOW GOOD.

 

[ditttohead]

Never making fun of you, I am just put off by people who make statements that have the appearance of being an absolute because they read or heard it somewhere rather than taking the free advice of a 30+ year field technician that has been involved in residential, commercial and industrial water treatment. I am sure you have read many posts and have noticed that there are several contributors who are willing to give free, very professional advice and when they are not sure, they let it be known that "to the best of their knowledge" disclaimer wisely comes out. Take advantage of this resource but try not to tell us that we using scare tactics or that we are absolutely wrong because you did not like the answer.

Upflow can be very good under certain circumstances, it is just unfortunate that many companies overstate the ability of upflow. If you want to try regenerating with the lowest amount of salt and forgo some water efficiency and performance, then upflow is beneficial in this application. I can also make an argument as to why upflow can be better for the highest purity softened water applications, but this is mostly on paper. When we take into consideration eh potential for bed fluidization, the need for pressure regulated brine injection systems, and even temperature compensation calculations, downflow is simply better for the vast majority of applications., That being said, you will do fine with upflow, just don't expect to get 80% better efficiency like some crazy websites have claimed in the past. Variable brining can also be beneficial but only in applications where the systems are massively undersized. If you can get past 4-5 days between regenerations it is unlikely you would notice any difference in variable brining efficiencies especially when you take into consideration that we usually program in a heavy salt dosing intermittently to help reduce the problems associated with variable brining. As to explaining the nuances of upflow vs. downflow, I can preach both ways. If a customer wants upflow, they get upflow (less than a couple percent), most want downflow since the potential problems in the field are nearly eliminated. Yes, upflow (counter-current) regeneration is technically very slightly better in some circumstances, but the lack of problems in the field, and lack of regulating, ultra tiny injectors, temperature compensation et. are all eliminated with downflow. For your valve I would recommend using an injector that draws the brine out in about 30-40 minutes max compared to the industry standard 15-20 minutes and simply triple or quadruple the total brine /slow rinse time accordingly. This will likely eliminate most problems that can occur with upflow brining. And since you are in San Diego it is unlikely you will have to deal with excessively cold water which can cause problems of bed fluidization which can quickly negate all of the advantages of upflow regeneration.

And... one more hockey game tonight, I'm getting too old for 3-4 games a day.

 

[Eric Wesson]

Decent info, and I get what you're saying about upflow being touted as something very special. Softener makers are struggling to differentiate themselves when they are selling plastic, a bit of electronics, and not much else. I can see why that would irritate people in the business.

But - since you brought up people getting advice here - I didn't ask your opinion or advice about upflow versus downflow. I'm giving y'all a field report on an interesting softener head I found. Upflow is elegant - as you put it, "on paper" - and I'm toying around with it.

Get it? I didn't ask your opinion. I didn't like or dislike your opinion; it was just irrelevant.

 

[ditttohead]

Got it but, sorry, you stated it was a Fleck Valve body (obviously you were misled). If I expanded beyond your personal desire for a response then I truly apologize.

 

[derekja]

(thanks, dittohead! your reply helped me a few years later on a related problem with a watergroup filter...)