Water softener install-main water line

[David S]

Hello members! This is my first post here but I have been reading alot of the posts and like everybody looking for ideas. I want to install a softener in my mother in laws house so I need it to be right! Here is what I am looking at doing and seeking advice on.
There is no loop in her house so I need to find an appropriate home for the softener. The water line and drain line coming into the house are on opposite sides of the home so I don't have access to a drain in the garage area and no bathrooms back up to any of the garage walls I could use. My options are the attic which I have pretty much ruled out due to carrying bags of salt up there. My next option is the laundry room so I can use the washing machine drain line for the softener and just get the main water line to the laundry room. If I do that my plan is to cut the water line where it comes into the house which I believe is 1" PVC (positive it's pvc but unsure if it's 1 inch yet) and run it up the wall in the garage to the attic and over to the laundry room and down that wall to the softener and back outside. What would be the best material for the run in the attic? PVC? Copper? Pex? I am a fairly avid DIYer having installed my softener without a loop and a friends with a loop. I would be more comfortable using PVC but that is many glued joints with the potential of failing in the attic and flooding her home making for a mad mother in law . I'm thinking the PEX would be best because I could run one continuos line from outside to the softener and my only connections or weak points would be at the softener and in the ground where I cut the main line? If PEX how do I go from the PVC to Pex? What do you guys think? I am in Austin Texas so the attic gets hot in the summer but seldom if ever freezes in the winter. Thanks for the ideas and help!

 

[Reach4]

You could use CPVC, but PEX would be nice. You would want 1 inch, even if the incoming water line was 3/4. Unfortunately adding PVC for inside pressure water plumbing is not allowed by codes now.

In many freeze-free areas, people put the softener outdoors. I think some people drain to a "dry well" if it is permitted in their area.

It is OK to have the brine tank separated from the softener, even by a floor.

I am not a pro.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[David S]

Thanks for input Reach! I think I would prefer to not drain it outside. I don't know if it is allowed or how to check if it is but would like it to drain to the sewer line. Do you know what the best fitting to use from the PVC to the PEX would be as it would be buried in the ground? I don't know if Sharkbites can be buried? I don't have any PEX tools yet but I might not mind investing in some as I am about to re-plumb my entire house as I learned I have kitec supply lines which leak.. I was going to use PEX for my home.

 

[Reach4]

I don't know about the best fittings. I would think threaded, but I am not sure.

Some people buy PEX tools, use them, and then sell them used. Uponor PEX-A tools are more expensive. Read up on the A-B-C thing. https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Cross-linked_polyethylene Uponor PEX-A has the advantage that the fittings have bigger ID and more resistant to kinking. http://www.uponorpro.com/Modal-Pages/Products-and-Tools-Modal-Page.aspx?id={CC6D8276-931B-4B1E-8DDA-CEA0A279677C} PEX-B is more economical and still is very good.

 

[ditttohead]

Where are you located? Can you post pictures of the main line. more information is needed.
In general, drain lines are much easier to run than main lines. The softener drain can be as simple as 1/2" or 3/4" PVC run to almost any length, up, down, buried etc. You also only have to run the pipe a single direction as opposed to running the main to a new location. This requires larger pipe, in either pex, copper, cpvc, or other locally approved material run from the main, to the softener, then back to the main..

 

[David S]

Thanks for all the replies and suggestions. I would love to put the softener in the garage but my problem is the drain line and I don't want to drain it in the grass outside. The reason for me wanting to put it in the laundry room is so I can use the laundry drain. I sketched a drawing of the house layout that is attached so you can see what I am trying to figure out. I understand the idea of not running a main line in and back out. If there is a way to drain it from the garage I am open to those suggestions!! I just didn't want to dig up her front yard and go under a sidewalk to run a drain line to her waste line. Again, I am open to suggestions and ideas. Thank you again. Pretty certain I have decided to us Uponor PEX for the water line and bite the bullet and buy the tool for it.

 

[Bannerman]

What is the vertical distance to the attic and the distance from the garage to the laundry room or bathroom drain? Depending on distance and height difference, you may need to increase the drain line diameter from 1/2" to 3/4" or 1". The softener drain is at water system pressure so it maybe extended a considerable distance.

As Dittohead mentioned, far simpler to run a single drain line. A continuous length of polyethylene pipe would be cheap and have no joints and few fittings would be required.

 

[David S]

I didn't realize that the softener discharged it at pressure? I am not at her house right now but it is a 9 ft ceiling and the bathroom is closer then the laundry room. The laundry room is approximately 20-25 ft from the back of the garage and the bathroom is about 10-15 ft. If it is possible how would I tie into the bathroom drain line or laundry drain line from the attic? The attic is extremely accessible with lots of room. I had read not to use the vent stack as the drain line as it might siphon the water out of the trap.
Also, wold you run the drain line from the softener vertically to the attic into a trap and run that line to one of the drain lines? She is looking at one of the softeners at Sears which may not be the best but certainly better than nothing and her budget is somewhat restrictive. I think those have a safety overflow tube which I guess I could lay on the garage floor as if it ever overflowed through that it would just run out the garage floor outside. Let me know what I am missing...

 

[David S]

Sorry Bannerman I didn't catch you said polyethylene pipe that would be continuous. I now understand what you mean. So I looked at the manual of the softener she was considering and it uses a 3/8 drain tube and states it can be ran overhead like you mentioned! It does state not to raise it above 8 ft off the floor? The softener is 4 ft tall so the drain line comes off the softener 3 ft up so I'm assuming I can go 8ft vertical from that? If so that would get me up in the attic above the rafters and I can run it over to the bathroom or laundry room. So if that's the case my only question now is how do I tie in the 3/8 tubing to the drain either in the attic or in the laundry or bathroom? Is 3/8 tube ok or if not what size and how do I transition from 3/8 to 3/4 etc... The A/C unit is also up there now that I think about it and I'm sure has a condensation line tied into something. Could I use that somehow? I can try to get a pic later if needed of that. I feel like I have a better plan coming together!! Thank you!

 

[Bannerman]

Any drain connection should be separated from the drain connection with an air gap. An air gap can be as simple as leaving a space, at least 2X the diameter of the drain line, say above a floor drain. Fastening the drain line to a 2X4 beside a floor drain would keep the end of the drain line 1.5" above the floor drain.

Since you are not using a floor drain, there are commercially made air gaps which maybe utilized. Here is one example for a laundry standpipe (see 2/3 down the page): https://www.plumbingsupply.com/airgap.html

Here are other examples" http://www.airgap.com/

http://www.airgap.com/plumbing_codes.html

Following the air gap, there will need to be a trap to prevent sewer gas from entering the space. A trap is not required on the pressure drain line from the softener. Simple adapters will allow a change in tubing diameter. A longer run increases frictional flow resistance so sometimes, a larger diameter line is needed even though the fitting on the softener maybe smaller.

On this forum, the brand you are considering and other big box softeners are not usually considered as the highest quality. Softeners utilizing Fleck, Clack or Autotrol control valves paired with quality domestic tanks and components, will generally provide trouble free service for 10-20 years and then they usually can be refurbished for reasonable cost.

 

[David S]

Thanks so much for the information! I understand everything you said. I will look at the a/c drain line in the attic and post some pics if I think it is usable. I guess another option would be to snake the drain line down the wall and connect it above the trap in the bathroom sink? Or run it down the wall and drain it in the laundry room drain too.
I'm assuming you feel the vertical rise and run I mentioned are ok especially if I go with a 3/4 or 1 inch? If not I guess I could put the softener on a stand too if you thought that was necessary.

Right now here is my plan:
Run water line with 1" PEX to softener in garage corner by the exterior wall. Run the drain line up to attic and drain to either the bathroom, laundry room, or a/c drain line. Will post pics if I'm unsure. Will also convert 3/8 line to a larger line such as 3/4 or 1". The emergency drain line that operates off gravity I will run through the wall to the outside of the home to drain in the event of an overflow emergency. Correct me if you need to do so but I feel pretty good about this now. Thank you again!!!

P.S. I understand what you say about the big box softener.

 

[Reach4]

he is looking at one of the softeners at Sears which may not be the best but certainly better than nothing and her budget is somewhat restrictive.

What is that single cabinet softener going to cost?

 

[David S]

The one she was looking at was $450

 

[JTROANOKE]

On this forum, the brand you are considering and other big box softeners are not usually considered as the highest quality. Softeners utilizing Fleck, Clack or Autotrol control valves paired with quality domestic tanks and components, will generally provide trouble free service for 10-20 years and then they usually can be refurbished for reasonable cost.

As far as price goes, I just purchased a 48000 grain Fleck softener online for only $75 more than the price of a Sears unit, so the Sears units don't save much other than a bit of space. This was to replace an existing Sears unit that developed a slow leak in the brine well. The brine well in the compact units has the resin tank inside it, so replacing the brine well means complete disassembly of the whole unit. The Fleck version I bought appears to be 100% better quality wise than the unit it replaced, and came with a robust appearing bypass valve. When I put the sears unit in I was afraid of the bypass valve as it was so flimsy, so I had to fabricate my own with ball valves and more copper. Which would eat up most of the $75 savings. Bypass valve is important to me as I have a pool, and therefore use it when filling the pool, or watering the lawn. Boneheads who plumbed my house during construction did not run home runs for the hose bibs, and the next owner finished the basement which limited my options on putting in hard water hose bibs. So I use the bypass frequently during the summer.

The Sears units (and whirlpool/GE) units are overrated on capacity as compared to the amount of resin they hold and the size of the tank. They rate a 1 cf unit at 41000 grains capacity, which if you read around here, is theoretically impossible.

Anyway, no savings really to be had with a Sears unit, other than a little space. And once they are out of warranty they are throwaways, as the parts prices are astronomical compared to a unit built up of standard parts. They wanted $185 plus shipping for the brine tank (housing) for my unit, which went 11 years on the 10 year tank warranty. Go figure...

 

[Reach4]

I am pretty sure that 1 inch would not be needed for that drain line. I suspect 1/2 inch would be enough since the original used 3/8 tubing, but 3/4 would be good enough to allow a bigger softener in the future if that came up.

Remember to run unsoftened water to at least one hose bib if practical. Hard water is better for plants.

 

[David S]

I wanted to say thank you for all of the responses from everyone. I just want to confirm 2 things yet before I start work.
I went over to my mother in laws house and confirmed that the a/c unit condensation line is roughly 20-25 ft from where I would put the softener. My question is that it is a 3/4 pvc line that runs down the wall to the bathroom sink and drains in the trap. See the attached pic if it helps. I'm assuming I can just add a "t" to the line and bring a pipe up 12" to attach the drain line to and create my air gap? I don't think I need a trap here since it is draining to the sink above the sink trap? Please correct me if I'm wrong.
I also attached a pic of a fitting that I think I should use to go from the 1" pvc main line outside to transition over to 1" pex? I'll be using the uponor aquapex. Male pvc fitting to female brass? I learned from a previous mistake where I put a female PVC fitting that blew apart...... live and learn!



Thank you again!

 

[David S]

Hello again! I ordered my pex and fittings so should be able to start this next week. My only remaining question is how to tie in the drain line in the attic. I am getting the fleck system. I plan on using the 1/2 condensation drain line from the a/c in the attic that drains to the bathroom sink above the trap. The softener is in the garage so the drain line will go up about 6 ft to the attic and it is another 15-20 ft to the pvc line pictured. Do I run the flexible line all the way to the pvc? If so do I need to be concerned at all with slope or no since it is under pressure? Or run pvc line over to just above softener in the attic? Either way can I just have a 12" piece of pipe sticking up and create my air gap that way by putting the flexible hose only 5" in it? Does that make sense? Hope so! Thanks for the support!

 

[Reach4]

The A/C drain is not under pressure. I fear 3 GPM from the softener will blast up into the AC. Not good. Can you run a separate line for the brine? You really need to.

People planning on using a wye or tee were combining drains that were both under pressure and were more potable than A/C drain water.

 

[Bannerman]

Do not connect to the A/C condensate drain for the reasons that Reach4 mentioned.

You would be best to extend the pressurized drain line directly from the softener, to where a larger diameter (ie: 1.5" or larger) drain pipe is located. Install an air gap and large drain trap at that location. Perhaps the larger diameter bathroom sink drain piping could be extended into the attic?

The air gap and the larger drain will relieve the 30-60 psi softener drain pressure, so the volume of water exiting will then flow by gravity, at O psi pressure. Connecting to the existing 1/2" or 3/4" A/C condensate drain line would not relieve the system pressure and so would turn the condensate drain line into a pressurized line.

 

[David S]

The attic is very accessible. The vent stacks come up from through the attic. Can I tie into that in some way? My only other thought was to run the drain line from the softener up in the attic back down the ceiling in the laundry room and into the drain there. I don't know how nice that would look coming out of the ceiling..... How could I extend the drain from the bathroom sink or laundry room up in the attic?