Toilet leak at floor

[Cjccmc]

Hi all,

I have wet rotted wood under this toilet on a slab floor.

It's a bit of a long story but since I have this problem after a pro plumber set the toilet, a solution that really works may be more involved than a usual fix. Here goes ...

My circa 1980 toilet worked fine on top of engineered wood floors put under it in 2006. Then in 2013 a dehumidifier overheated the room and melted the wax ring and the first flush after that put water on the floor. We had a plumber "fix" this. About a year later (2014) I had another plumber out for reasons I don't recall and he removed and reset the toilet. The floor had those dark areas on the side ever since the wax melted so we did not think it was an ongoing leak. But after heavy use for a few days the dark patches grew and we finally became aware last week that it was not just a stain but moisture.

It's plastic, tilted, top is 3/8" above wood flooring in front, 1/16" below wood in back.
It attaches to (glued?) a 4" ID black plastic piece which may be part of the elbow just below.
No screws holding flange to anything. No wood flooring under flange.
No cracks in toilet bowl.

Here is the current state after removing the toilet and damp wood:

What do I need to do to fix this? Ongoing damage to the replaced wood flooring is the biggest impact.

Thanks in advance.

 

[Reach4]

What do I need to do to fix this? Ongoing damage to the replaced wood flooring is the biggest impact.

Have you been using a plunger? That could be what is driving water out. The possible cure would to get the soil pipe cleaned. That and/or get a modern toilet that does not need plunging.

Even if you have not been plunging, your soil pipe may be partially blocked letting water rise above the floor level.


Is the "to floor", written on the ring, in the front?

I am not a plumber.

 

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[Cjccmc]

Have you been using a plunger? That could be what is driving water out. The possible cure would to get the soil pipe cleaned. That and/or get a modern toilet that does not need plunging.

Even if you have not been plunging, your soil pipe may be partially blocked letting water rise above the floor level.


Is the "to floor", written on the ring, in the front?
QUOTE]

Thanks for your reply Reach4.

No recent plunging on that toilet. We had visitors staying with us for a few days so flushes were 4x usual in that time and that's when wet patch grew. But no problems with toilet backing up. But I have been in this home 20 years and never had the lines "roto rootered" , never had obvious problems.
Now that I have a rag in the hole, will it get wet from use of the upstairs shower and toilets if there is the type of blockage that you are thinking about?

The "fasten to floor" lettering is in the back where the flange is lowest due to tilted mounting.

BTW, this toilet never rocked, so even without screws holding the flange to the slab the mounting felt solid to all royalty using the throne.

 

[Reach4]

Now that I have a rag in the hole, will it get wet from use of the upstairs shower and toilets if there is the type of blockage that you are thinking about?

Probably. I am thinking there may be a partial blockage downstream. When there is more water trying to get through the blockage than can, the water rises.

While the toilet is off, maybe consider getting a drain cleaning specialist to come in and run a large cutter through there. It is not normal, with normal plumbing, to have the water rise under the rag as you describe. There are some old fittings where that could be normal. If you have that, you could see two openings under the closet flange where an upstream drain joins in at the flange.

The "fasten to floor" lettering is in the back where the flange is lowest due to tilted mounting.

Your first photo did not show wax adhering to that area. Suppose the wax ring was too thin to fill the gap there. As the water rose, that could have served as a place to leak. While the directions might say to put the ring on the bottom of the toilet, and then set the toilet down, it is more normal to put the ring down on the closet flange and set the toilet down.

The reason I asked about plunging is that could develop pressure that might blow out a ring, if the clog was below.

See https://terrylove.com/forums/index....on-replacing-toilet-flange.69522/#post-515913 for the use of two rings.

Maybe you could slice one ring at an angle to level things out better and then put the second ring on top. Wax will squish to fit. The horn/flange is to keep the wax from squishing into the flow path.

3/8 above the floor is about the max that you can use a waxless seal such as Saniseal. I don't know if that would be better than wax or not for you. I am thinking wax is going to be the deal to accommodate your slant.

I don't know what can improve that existing stain. Is that a floating floor?

 

[Cjccmc]

Probably. I am thinking there may be a partial blockage downstream. When there is more water trying to get through the blockage than can, the water rises.

To check my drainage I emptied the upstairs tub along with some simultaneous toilet flushes and got no backup at this downstairs toilet drain. Also had a load of laundry done during the day where the drain for that is only 2 ft away from this toilet and again no backup so I'm thinking blockage is not the culprit.

Your first photo did not show wax adhering to that area. Suppose the wax ring was too thin to fill the gap there. As the water rose, that could have served as a place to leak. While the directions might say to put the ring on the bottom of the toilet, and then set the toilet down, it is more normal to put the ring down on the closet flange and set the toilet down.

The reason I asked about plunging is that could develop pressure that might blow out a ring, if the clog was below.

See https://terrylove.com/forums/index....on-replacing-toilet-flange.69522/#post-515913 for the use of two rings.

Maybe you could slice one ring at an angle to level things out better and then put the second ring on top. Wax will squish to fit. The horn/flange is to keep the wax from squishing into the flow path.

3/8 above the floor is about the max that you can use a waxless seal such as Saniseal. I don't know if that would be better than wax or not for you. I am thinking wax is going to be the deal to accommodate your slant.

I don't know what can improve that existing stain. Is that a floating floor?

I've pretty much decided on wax. Along the lines you suggested of a partial second ring cut at an angle I was thinking of sticking a 1/2" tall band of wax to the toilet underside above the low point of the flange (back). Maybe wrap that half way around. Main wax ring (without plastic reinforcement) could go on the flange. Any reason these two pieces of wax would not happily marry into one when I set the toilet?

I pulled out all the wet boards and will replace with new ones. They were glued to the concrete so they were biotches to remove.

 

[Reach4]

. Any reason these two pieces of wax would not happily marry into one when I set the toilet?

You can mold a regular wax ring to any shape you like. You can merge wax rings. Put on your nitrile gloves and shape it like you would modeling clay. So cutting not required. The gloves are not needed but are desirable for easy cleaning.

But still, if there is no blockage, there should not be leakage even if there were no wax ring. Look at the toilet, and see that it has its own >2.5 ID horn at the output. That hovers over the ~3 inch hole in the closet ring. Solids and liquids fall pretty much straight down. Come to think of it, how big is the hole on your flange?

Is there a floor drain at the level of the ground floor? If not, maybe there was a city sewer backup after as storm, and a crack in the wax at that toilet was the lowest level in your house.

I was wondering if there was a problem having that slanted closet flange, you could sand down that high side of the existing flange, and put a DANCO HydroSeat there. That would not work in your case, because your existing toilet base leaves very small margins. Besides, that is usually for when the closet flange is rather low or the existing flange will not hold the bolts.

If you ever do plunge, read up on Terry's method: short strokes timed to set up a resonance. https://terrylove.com/forums/index.php?threads/plunging-a-toto-drake.65713/#post-488211

 

[Cjccmc]

But still, if there is no blockage, there should not be leakage even if there were no wax ring. Look at the toilet, and see that it has its own >2.5 ID horn at the output. That hovers over the ~3 inch hole in the closet ring. Solids and liquids fall pretty much straight down. Come to think of it, how big is the hole on your flange?

Yeah, good point about not needing the wax for preventing leaks. Makes me wonder why it leaked when the ring melted. Wish I could figure that out. Not much chance that it came from a sewer backup, we've had no rain since March, but having that toilet used heavily by visitors and seeing the wet spot grow at that time makes me think it comes from flushing.

The hole in the flange is 4" ID and quickly transitions to a 90 el so that there is only about a 2" vertical piece before the el starts. I stuck a garden hose about 6" down and ran it full blast for about 30 seconds and no sign of a clog, water just moved along the drain, no backing up.

My plan at this point is to get a new toilet and position the bowl over the flange in the install position with shims under to simulate the flooring that will go in later. I want to see if I can dump a 4 gal bucket and have it go down without leaking on the floor. Does that seem like a valid test? Much easier to deal with possible leakage when no flooring is in place.

 

[Reach4]

Not much chance that it came from a sewer backup, we've had no rain since March, but having that toilet used heavily by visitors and seeing the wet spot grow at that time makes me think it comes from flushing.

The pattern does not seem to go along with the suspicion of not having the base caulked and a bad aim.

I want to see if I can dump a 4 gal bucket and have it go down without leaking on the floor. Does that seem like a valid test? Much easier to deal with possible leakage when no flooring is in place.

Sounds reasonable. Maybe try a 5 gallon bucket onto the empty flange while the garden hose is running. Stress test. You will spill some, but with a helper or movie camera you can see if the pipe fills.

What toilet are you looking at?

 

[Cjccmc]

Most of our visitors were girls and I'm assuming they hit the target without even aiming.

I'll probably go with a basic model toilet with numerous good reviews from one of the big box stores. Toilets are a category where I'd look for value and not a collectors item. The one I removed is 40 yrs old and with a decent cleaning would look like new, no chips or scratches and the porcelain still has a sheen. Just for grins I calculated that it would take 5 years to recoup the cost of a new $200 toilet if it saved 2 gal per flush at 10 flushes per day. I really need to get a life

 

[Cjccmc]

I decided to trial install a new toilet and make sure I can eliminate the leaks before reinstalling replacement wood flooring. Bought the AS Cadet 3 and assembly was a breeze, zero tools required other than the plastic socket wrench they provide. I was impressed with the quality of the part fits. Price was about $180 out the door and it comes with a slow closing seat. I'm not crazy about the styling but the cover has the flat top that I now require after finding out the downside of the slippery curvy ones.

Here it will sit for 2 weeks as we put it thru the paces. Note the high tech moisture sensor installed on the floor at the flange . If no leaks are detected I'll pull it, install the flooring and put it back in the same way. AS provides a tall reinforced wax ring in the box and I won't be able to get the exact same for reinstall but hopefully the standard H0me Dep0t tall ones work as well.