Thoughts on Lifesource whole home filtration?

[uscpsycho]

Does anyone have an opinion on whole home water filtration by Lifesource? I searched the forum and was surprised to find very few mentions.

For those not familiar with the company, I'm considering this filtration and softening system.

My plumber likes the system and has it himself (although he got a significant discount). But he is a sample size of one. Online reviews, if they are to believed, are quite positive. But I'd like more feedback from people with their feet on the ground and experience with this. It's a big investment...

If Lifesource isn't recommended, what whole home water system would you recommend? I want something that is salt free and (mostly) maintenance free. If it makes any difference I am in Los Angeles.

 

[Reach4]

They missed a bullet point:

• does not soften water.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Treeman]

I cannot provide any assistance to the OP, but the "Template Assisted Crystallization (TAC) technology" used by Lifesource is interesting. It seems that it works well is some applications to reduce scale build up (not softening). A homeowner would have to evaluate the units to see if it meets THEIR needs and maintenance cost concerns (replace resin every 3 years??).

Here's one of several Googled articles on TAC: Template Assisted Crystallization (TAC) technology: http://guelph.ca/wp-content/uploads/ResidentialWaterSofteningSalintyWaterUseReduction_Sept2015.pdf

 

[uscpsycho]

They missed a bullet point:

• does not soften water.

You also missed a point "I want something that is salt free" and there is no true residential softening without salt.

Would appreciate honest help without snark please

 

[uscpsycho]

They never claimed to truly soften water, just reduce scale build up. See the attached photo of their brochure.

Can we discuss the softening issue separately? My main objective is water filtration. Reducing scale is icing on the cake because I won't install a water softener anyway.

Any experience with the company? Their service? Reliability of the system? Superior systems I should consider?

 

[Reach4]

You also missed a point "I want something that is salt free" and there is no true residential softening without salt.

I missed what?

My main objective is water filtration.

There are a lot of good filters. They are made to filter different things. Cartridge sediment filters are very useful, even with city water. What is your positive objective?

 

[ditttohead]

PM sent

 

[uscpsycho]

I cannot provide any assistance to the OP, but the "Template Assisted Crystallization (TAC) technology" used by Lifesource is interesting. It seems that it works well is some applications to reduce scale build up (not softening). A homeowner would have to evaluate the units to see if it meets THEIR needs and maintenance cost concerns (replace resin every 3 years??).

Here's one of several Googled articles on TAC: Template Assisted Crystallization (TAC) technology: http://guelph.ca/wp-content/uploads/ResidentialWaterSofteningSalintyWaterUseReduction_Sept2015.pdf

Thank you so much for pointing me onto this path!

Researching TAC has led to some great information and it does seem that this method can significantly reduce scale. For the benefit of anyone who comes across this thread in the future, here is the best thing I've found - https://continuingeducation.bnpmedia.com/courses/multi-aia/templateassisted-crystallization/1/.

Here's another good one - http://guelph.ca/wp-content/uploads/ResidentialWaterSofteningSalintyWaterUseReduction_Sept2015.pdf

There's lots of other information out there but the actual studies are very technical and hard to understand without a chemistry degree. And of course tons of info from companies that make the systems or plumbers who install them. Rely on that at your own risk.

Curious if anyone knows of other whole home treatment systems that use TAC? It does seem like the next best thing to actual water softening with salt.

 

[Reach4]

It does seem like the next best thing to actual water softening with salt.

1. Do you have a problem with pipes clogging? Is preventing clogging your actual objective?
2. Do you consider potassium chloride salt? Yes, I know the chemist has a broad definition. Some people mean sodium chloride when they say salt.

 

[uscpsycho]

1) I have all new fixtures, a lot of new pipes and a new water heater. My interest in descaling is to protect these things.
2) I don't have an opinion on potassium chloride. I do not like the feeling of water that is actually softened. And there are a lot of negatives to salt based water softening. I have no idea what specific chemicals are involved but I'd just rather not go down that road.

As I said before, my main objective is filtering the water for drinking, ice, etc. But if the system has a way to also descale that is icing on the cake.

 

[Reach4]

1) I have all new fixtures, a lot of new pipes and a new water heater. My interest in descaling is to protect these things.
2) I don't have an opinion on potassium chloride. I do not like the feeling of water that is actually softened. And there are a lot of negatives to salt based water softening. I have no idea what specific chemicals are involved but I'd just rather not go down that road.

As I said before, my main objective is filtering the water for drinking, ice, etc. But if the system has a way to also descale that is icing on the cake.

For that objective, a maybe 5-stage reverse osmosis unit would be best.

Feeding that with soft water is easier on the membrane, but not necessary. If you use a regular softener, the RO takes out the salt and other stuff. Do not run RO through metal pipes, so plastic to the fridge. The minerals removed actually help protect metals.

Point of use RO does not protect the water heater from corrosion... neither does a softener. Whole-house RO is expensive, but I guess that is relative. But you would need plastic pipes.

 

[uscpsycho]

Definitely don't want to do RO. It is expensive, it removes beneficial minerals and, worst of all IMO, it wastes a lot of water. We have a drought here in CA and I'm very careful about my water usage. I think any kind of RO should be illegal anywhere that has drought conditions.

 

[Sylvan]

Normally I do not like a whole house filtration systems for the following reasons

1- Severe pressure drop

2- Why filter waster for a garden hose or flushing of a toilet

I do like point of use filters as they are easier to maintain and can remove what is actually needed such as heavy metals ,chlorine etc

 

[uscpsycho]

One of the things that attracts me to the whole home systems is the lack of maintenance. Something that only has to be replaced once every several years is much lower maintenance to me than point of use filters. And it protects the pipes/appliances/fixtures.

I'm not the type of person who is paranoid that municipal water is going to kill me. But I do filter all of my drinking water using a counter top water filter and I'd like to stop doing that. Plus I have plumbed appliances that I can't pre-filter the water for unless I get multiple point of use systems.

I know the product I use for filtering my water (a glorified Brita type contraption) isn't exactly state of the art so anything that gets my water to that level or better will probably make me happy from a drinking water perspective. But I also like the idea of descaling to protect my coffee maker, steam oven, convection oven, freezer, ice maker, water heater and steam shower generator which are all directly plumbed. Over the years I've experienced the failure of multiple Keurig machines even with regular descaling so I know the long term effects are real.

 

[Reach4]

uscpsycho RO would be great for the coffee maker. Some RO have a remineralization cartridge. Minerals for your diet from tap water are pretty insignificant compared to food.

To Sylvan... uscpsycho ignore this part:

1- Severe pressure drop

A single 20x4.5 doesn't have much drop. City water often has sand and other sediment. Consider what you find in aerator screens.

2- Why filter waster for a garden hose or flushing of a toilet

Usually outdoor spigots are not included in the whole-house filtering. Regarding toilets, with city water, the cartridge will probably last a year whether you run the toilet through it.

 

[Sylvan]

Thankfully NYC has one of the best public water supplies in the nation so other then chlorine there is very little to filter

I had one nut case who demanded she needed a whole house filtration system and I told her hire someone else

After she paid him and he left her toilets would not work because the flushometers did not have enough pressure and he also reduced the main water supply from 11/2" to 1"

Even my own house has 4 thermometers (Sloan Royals )

 

[uscpsycho]

uscpsycho RO would be great for the coffee maker. Some RO have a remineralization cartridge. Minerals for your diet from tap water are pretty insignificant compared to food.

I suppose I could entertain this. The RO would go to my coffee maker, steam oven and convection oven. None of which use enough water that I'd be worried about how much water is wasted. And I don't care about remineralization for those.

Previously, you said not to use metal pipes with RO treated water. That might be a problem. The appliances are supplied with braided metal water lines. I suppose I could use rubber or plastic lines instead but then if I have a problem with the appliances I could see the manufacturer saying I voided the warranty by third party parts. I don't want to foot the repair bill if they deny a warranty claim.

I like the idea of using RO to protect the coffee maker. What happens if I use the RO with metal water lines?

 

[Bannerman]

Although I expect Ditttohead has addressed relevant issues with you within his PM, here are two threads he posted to which you may wish to review.
Re: Non salt descaling methods, see post # 5: https://terrylove.com/forums/index....e-water-filtration-systems.74839/#post-558096
Re: cartridge filters for a whole house application, see post #9 of the same thread.

With regards to RO water 'wastage', Pentair now offer their Pentair GRO membrane which has a low flow rate requirement (1:1) for flushing away contaminants, unlike conventional membranes which often require 4:1.

Braided metal hoses contain a flexible plastic/rubber line inside. Water is not in contact with the braided covering.

RO water is virtually pure water with extremely low TDS and as such, will attempt to dissolve almost anything it comes into contact with including elements within various metals including copper and brass fittings. Stainless Steel is safer as that is the metal usually utilized for RO tank fittings.

Edit to add: I haven't seen a water report or link to a municipal report for your water. While there is much talk about preventing scale build-up, do you know how much minerals are in the water that might be a problem?

What contaminants do you wish to filter out?

 

[ditttohead]

Definitely don't want to do RO. It is expensive, it removes beneficial minerals and, worst of all IMO, it wastes a lot of water. We have a drought here in CA and I'm very careful about my water usage. I think any kind of RO should be illegal anywhere that has drought conditions.

Since residential water usage makes up only a very small fraction of total water usage, taking away our right to provide our families with far safer drinking water with a law is not an acceptable solution. The "Beneficial" minerals, do those include arsenic, chemicals,
Chlorine, Cysts, Atrazine, Lead, Lindane, Chloroform, Pentavalent Arsenic, Fluoride, Hexavalant Chromium,Trivalent Chromium, Radium, etc... I could go on but...

Consider some smaller municipalities that do not have the testing capabilities, or those with certain sensitivities to certain chemical, or those with compromised immune systems.

And virtually every bottled water company uses the same process, reverse osmosis. Now commercial RO can be set to incredible efficiencies, but considering the transportation, the plastic bottle waste, etc.. in home Ro is much greener solution.

Unfortunately their os so much BS marketing online from too many companies, funny thing is, in my 30 years, I have installed RO's at many of the owners of these companies houses. They may market against RO, but they certainly have them. Same goes for softening. One of our dealers just installed a new softener at one of the largest fake softener (salt free) companies last month.

In general the water supplied by municipalities is acceptable, but far from what it could be.

Agriculture uses approximately 80% of our water in California. Is this wasted or is it being used to grow food?

I used to operate some small cooling towers, these consumed in excess of a million gallons of water per day each, and we had 12 of them. Is this water wasted or was it used to lower our electrical consumption massively by using simple and cheap evaporative cooling?

And... modern RO systems are now down to a 1:1 ratio. Is it better to make it at home with this tiny bit of waste (which is technically not waste, I could go on for hours but it is an old and complex topic regarding water reuse by municipalities, they want us to use water in residential applications, it makes most waste water treatment plants much easier to operate, more water, less tds/solids. And since the water typically gets recycled to the next city through the use of extensive percolation ponds, ground water reintroduction...

 

[ditttohead]

Thankfully NYC has one of the best public water supplies in the nation so other then chlorine there is very little to filter

I had one nut case who demanded she needed a whole house filtration system and I told her hire someone else

After she paid him and he left her toilets would not work because the flushometers did not have enough pressure and he also reduced the main water supply from 11/2" to 1"

Even my own house has 4 thermometers (Sloan Royals )

Many areas of new York have very good water but... not everything is as it seems. Low tds is only one indicator of water quality. Low TDS has led to many problems with older plumbing fixtures (prior to just a few years ago) with lead leaching into the water. So you are correct, the city water may be good, but your house water can be a significant source of lead. A simple google search of Lead new York water... the articles are abundant. The problem is that a whole house lead reduction system may not help since the lead is often coming from your own plumbing and fixtures. POU filtration with certified lead reduction is a good idea if your house does not have plumbing that meets the new ultra low lead standard (less the .25% by weighted volume...) Old lead standards allowed as much as 8% lead in pipes and fixtures in California and 4% lead in fixtures. This was enacted in California in 2010, so not that long ago. All states followed this new law shortly thereafter.

Now lets talk about sediment in the water. many areas in new York have significant sediment problems as seen in this lovely picture taken from a house in new York a few years ago. his filter was in place ahead of a Alkaline water machine (no need to debate the Alkaline machines... boring topic). This filter was in use for 3 weeks... very nice! The dark brown filter is from new York, the snot covered filter is from California. Floccing agents are used to keep the water from having excessive sediment, these are perfect examples of "not enough floc" and "too much floc". https://view.publitas.com/impact-water-products/2018-catalog-final/page/208-209

For many of our Jewish friends who practice Kashrut, this has become an increasingly complex issue. Copepods are abundant in many of New Yorks water supplies. These are certainly not dangerous but it is a legitimate concern for those trying to follow their religious beliefs.

In general, I really like much of New Yorks water supply but...


Class dismissed.