Suspected over heating pump?

[Henry B.]

Hello everyone, long time browser this forum is a life saver.

We lost our pressure tank at some point this winter and that was causing our pump to short cycle. This was unknown to us until we blew 2 inrush capacitors in 24 hours. I had read in a few places that a bigger tank is better as this will extend the life of pump, so I more or less doubled the capacity and went with a 119 gallon. Our pump is supposedly a 3/4hp 17GPM. However I do not have any paperwork to verify this as we purchased the house 3 years ago in 2015 and it was built in 1998.

My pressure switch is set from the factory at 30/50, I lowered the pre-charge to 28psi per the manual that came with the pressure tank.

The previous tank has no drain or over pressure previsions. I added both and attached a hose to the drain while I threw the breaker, to purge the air I introduced in the line. This worked well.

The tank will get up to about 40psi and the pump will continue running. The pressure holds at 40psi and the pump will shut off.

I have confirmed the pump is still receiving power as I am not hearing the pressure switch change states and there's a little light bulb that comes on near the pump control box when the switch is supplying power.

I can also shut the breaker off. Hold for 30 seconds or so and reset the breaker. The pump instantly comes back on.

This sounds to me like the pump is overheating and throwing open the thermal overload contacts. Which in this case I would imagine that means our pump is shot. Please tell me I'm wrong.

I currently have some water and about 40psi in the tank but I have left the pump off as I can only imagine this will eventually toast the motor in short time.

I am a capable DIY'er and as a profession I could be called a plumber of high purity chemicals/electrical technician. I believe my well is 175ft deep. Is this even something I am capable of doing (pump replacement) or is this best left to a professional with equipment? I don't mind buying tools but I'm also not looking to start a plumbing company

Thanks for reading. Any comments are appreciated.

 

[Valveman]

Hate to give bad news, but I am sure all that cycling has ruined the motor. With a 17 GPM pump you have to always use 17 GPM when using water for long terms to keep the pump from cycling itself to death. A 119 gallon tank only holds about 30 gallons of water, so you won't even get a two minute run time. A Cycle Stop Valve would have worked better with a much smaller tank. The larger the tank the longer the pressure will be weak and down close to 30 PSI before the pump comes on.

You could have replaced that tank with a PK1A, then you would have had some money left to pay for a new pump. You can still use a CSV1A with that large tank, but the large tank keeps you from seeing the strong constant pressure from the CSV until you have used all 30 gallons out of the tank. But the CSV will let use as little as 1 GPM without cycling the pump to death.

I don't think your pump is set very deep, as a 17 GPM, 3/4HP pump cannot build to 50 PSI if the water level is deeper than about 60'. So if the pump is on plastic pipe it can be pulled by hand. If it is on steel pipe you will need a hoist truck.

 

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[Henry B.]

Hey valveman, nice to talk to you. I have see you all over the internet

Anything less than a 1hp needs to run at minimum 60 seconds? Is this correct? I should get close to a minute and a half with 30 gallons?

Are the CSVs essentially a back pressure regulator?

If I am understanding you correctly, I should pull the top of the stand off pipe and see what material my piping is made of and determine my next step?

Thanks,
H.B.

 

[Reach4]

This was unknown to us until we blew 2 inrush capacitors in 24 hours.

Tell us about these capacitors? Are you referring to capacitors in a box after the pressure switch?

 

[Valveman]

With the old pressure tank only method 1 minute on and 1 minute off is barely acceptable. 2 minutes on and 2 minutes off is better. And NO cycling is best. With 1440 minutes in a day you can see how even a 2 minute cycle time can really add up.

But with a CSV the one minute run time does not apply. For one thing the pump will not cycle repeatedly as with the old pressure tank method. The CSV makes the pump stay running continuously for as long as you are using water. Then when no water is being used and the CSV is filling the tank at 1 GPM, the amp draw of the motor is reduced and doesn't produce as much heat, so it doesn't need a minute of run time to "cool down" . The CSV makes it run cooler, so it doesn't have to cool down before shutting off.

The CSV puts backpressure on the pump, making it think it is in a deeper well, so it can pump less water when you are using small amounts of water. But the CSV regulates "downstream" pressure, not upstream pressure. It holds the downstream pressure at a constant 50 PSI as long as you are using more than 1 GPM, which causes the upstream pressure to increase accordingly.

Yes see if you can tell what kind of pipe the pump is hanging on. Plastic can come out all at the same time. Steel will have to be disconnected every 21'.

 

[LLigetfa]

I don't think your pump is set very deep, as a 17 GPM, 3/4HP pump cannot build to 50 PSI if the water level is deeper than about 60'.

There may be a difference between the static water level and the depth the pump might be set at. While a pump should never be set lower than it can reach cutoff, it may not always be the case.

Given that the well is 175 feet deep, if they set the pump lower down and the static level dropped of the level got pumped down, the pump would not be able to reach cutoff. If due to low static level, the pump deadheads and overheats.

If due to drawdown, the pump could be flow rate limited and not get adequate cooling. I doubt that a 17 GPM pump would be put in a low producing well but one never knows. It could also be that the pump is set below where the water comes in and so is top fed.

 

[Henry B.]

Thank you everyone for the replies!!

Reach, this was the capacitor in the pump control box. There is only one and from what I've researched it's the inrush capacitor or the starting capacitor.

I have noticed if the tank is lower on water volume the pump will run longer, it only seems to shutoff as described when it approached 40psi.

I picked up a clamp on amp meter today. Can I place it around the entire 3 wire assembly or will I need to find a way to test each wire individually? The control box is a Franklin, I can't run the pump with the cover off as the capacitor and the pronged connector are located on the cover.

Couldn't I just attach the amp meter to the wiring coming into the pressure switch or will this not work? I noticed the control box specs say "YEL - BLK" and have the max amps listed as 8 amps.

I'll probably end up sticking a CSV on whether I need a pump or not.

What would happen if the pump is incapably of reaching that pressure because of the depth? How could I test for that?

Again thank you guys for taking the time to respond!

 

[Reach4]

Reach, this was the capacitor in the pump control box. There is only one and from what I've researched it's the inrush capacitor or the starting capacitor.

Pump control boxes have a start capacitor, and sometimes a run capacitor (with less capacitance than the start capacitor. The start capacitor is usually a non-polarized electrolytic, and the run cap is not an electrolytic.

 

[Henry B.]

Hello everyone,

I timed the pump today, I found that It will only run for about 42 seconds before shutting off and only about 25 if I wait for 30 seconds with the breaker off. If I wait longer say, 15 minutes, I can get back to the 40 second mark. I can't think of any other reason for this other than a bad pump.

I also found a well report from 2002. The well is 162ft deep but the static level of the water is reported at 26ft deep. Does this mean my pump is 162ft or 26ft under ground?

Thanks,
H.B.

 

[LLigetfa]

The well is 162ft deep but the static level of the water is reported at 26ft deep. Does this mean my pump is 162ft or 26ft under ground?

The pump will obviously be below 26 feet but unknown how much below.