*** Solved*** Troubleshooting my new 5810SXT softener. Running out of soft water too quickly?

[BDrivenByDemons]

***Solution - the bubbles from the air check in the brine tank not closing completely were agitating my resin. When the pros here say the resin can not be disturbed during brining on an upflow it shows they know their stuff. I got 900 gallons of soft water once I fixed that problem. 48k capacity/900 gal = 53.3 grains hardness. When you multiply my actual 42 grains times 1.3 in the high hardness compensation chart you get 54. Right on the money. Hopefully this solution helps someone in the future...***

The details...

Fleck 5810SXT with upflow piston verified
#00 violet injector
12"x52" tank
2cuft Aldex C800

*Measured* flows for accuracy...

Brine fill - .28GPM
Backwash - 4GPM
Brine draw - .21GPM + Slow rinse - .275GPM = .485GPM total through injector.

Fleck 5810SXT Settings:
DF = Gal ; Units
VT = 5810 ; Valve type
RF = UFbd ; Upflow brine first
CT = Fd ; Meter Delayed regen trigger
C = 48 ; capacity in 1000 grains
H = 42 ; Hardness
RS = cr ; Cr = base reserve on recent experience
DO = 0 ; Day Override (typ 30 if no iron/Mn)
RT = 2:00 ; Regen time (default 2 AM)
BD = 101 ; Brine draw minutes
BW = 10 ; Backwash minutes
RR = 6 ; Rapid Rinse minutes
BF = 19 ; Brine fill minutes
FM = t1.2

Settings above give me exactly 8lbs/ft for efficiency. I'm only getting about 500 gallons of soft water. Figures to about 21k capacity instead of the 48k capacity I'm calculating. The first 500 gallons after regen are excellent.

I purchased a Hach 5B and Hach iron strips to verify what's going into the softener and coming out. I'm glad I did because the lab test I had done said my hardness was 24. I have done multiple Hach tests here at home and it's always 42. I did contact Hach and they suggested I use the dilution method since I'm over 30GPG but it comes out the same even when I use the regular method.

I made another thread about this resin being stored and possibly drying out before use. I don't think that's the issue but I'm kinda stumped and threw it out there. Any thoughts where to begin fixing this problem?

 

[Reach4]

If you have 42 hardness water, I would set H to 51. This is for high hardness compensation.
That is discussed on this thread: https://terrylove.com/forums/index....0-sxt-programming-settings.60651/#post-450189
and various other places. Another place is http://media.wattswater.com/F-WQ-EngineeringGuide.pdf page 11.

The number of gallons before reserve =C/H-R where R is the reserve. At 2am, the softener sees if you are at that number or higher, and if so regenerates. If not, it tries again at 2am the next day.

I curve fit to come up with my formula, so the number may not exactly match the range method in the posting.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[BDrivenByDemons]

Interesting, I've read so much here over the years and never knew about that compensation. I will increase the H setting and see how it goes. I'm not optimistic that will completely fix my trouble since I'm getting less than 1/2 the capacity I should but I'll see how it goes.

 

[Asker123]

How much iron your softener deal with? Have you considered that?
Just curious how upflow piston is different from downflow ( I got the same model downflow)
My softener when new sat in my basement ( resin filled in the cylinder and sealed at the top for 10 months. It is working just fine.
you said that the first 500 gallons after regen are excellent. What happens after that?

 

[BDrivenByDemons]

How much iron your softener deal with? Have you considered that?
Just curious how upflow piston is different from downflow ( I got the same model downflow)
My softener when new sat in my basement ( resin filled in the cylinder and sealed at the top for 10 months. It is working just fine.
you said that the first 500 gallons after regen are excellent. What happens after that?

No iron, have a katalox filter upstream of the softener. Upflow has different geometry I'm sure. It's marked with a different color. After 500 gallons hardness quickly rises.

 

[BDrivenByDemons]

Found something... Bubbles during the BD cycle. Only after the brine has been sucked down. I'm assuming this not good for an upflow system. I recall dittohead saying the bed must be undisturbed during BD for upflow. I saw bubbles in the drain line then grabbed a light and watched inside the tank and could see little beads dancing around very slowly. Going to fix that and see how it improves things.

 

[Reach4]

Bubbles after the brine has been sucked down would probably be the air check valve. However the vacuum is stronger at that point.

 

[BDrivenByDemons]

Bubbles after the brine has been sucked down would probably be the air check valve. However the vacuum is stronger at that point.

Yea I'll fix that for sure I just hope it helps my issue.

 

[BDrivenByDemons]

Updated OP with solution.

 

[chronos44]

Updated OP with solution.

Did you have to replace the air check? or fixed another way?

 

[BDrivenByDemons]

Did you have to replace the air check? or fixed another way?

I replaced the air check.

 

[WaterBoyA2]

I think the OP's problem is not fully solved and he is only getting half the capacity of his media. I think the salt treat rate is low, too little brine fill time. Let me explain.

I've been troubleshooting a low brine fill flow rate problem. Some posts on TL helped me come to a conclusion. I have a 5810 with violet #00 injector and 0.25 GPM BLFC orifice. I expected 0.25 GPM brine fill and so did the online vendor, but my flow is 0.125 GPM, half the BLFC 0.25 GPM. I measured actual flow in a precision Menard's bucket with handy quart gradations!

A sticker on the valve body says 0.12 GPM and 0.37 lb/min. Based on some Terry Love (TL) posts I believe that sticker refers to the injector flow rate into the brine well. I would love to see a datasheet for the injectors to confirm.

I used water to understand the flow paths inside the valve body and I see that the injector path is connected to the blfc path. I believe it is in series (not just connected) based on TL posts.

Since OP has the same violet #00 injector, I believe he would also limit brine fill to 0.125 GPM. His fill time 19 min x 0.125 gal/min = 2.375 gal. 2.375 gal x 3 lb/gal = 7.125 lb salt. That is half the treat rate that OP wants for 2 ft^3 media.

Sounds like the air check was a problem, but I think there is more like 1800 gal capacity in OP's system. This would be good 24 gpG and I wonder if the lab was correct. I know the Hach titration test saturates at 30 gpG. I had to use dilution method to measure my 32 gpG incoming.

I'm posting because I want to know if my logic is correct. Bonus for OP if I'm right.

If correct, is there any problem with letting the injector be the limiting factor for flow? I saw another TL post saying the injector should not be the limiter, but I am not sure why that would matter.

First post... Thanks!

 

[Reach4]

I've been troubleshooting a low brine fill flow rate problem. Some posts on TL helped me come to a conclusion. I have a 5810 with violet #00 injector and 0.25 GPM BLFC orifice. I expected 0.25 GPM brine fill and so did the online vendor, but my flow is 0.125 GPM, half the BLFC 0.25 GPM. I measured actual flow in a precision Menard's bucket with handy quart gradations!

You could check the button and see if it has 25 or 123 molded into the button. That is right where the brine line connects to the body.

BLFC molded numbers "50"=0.50; "123"=0.125

 

[WaterBoyA2]

You could check the button and see if it has 25 or 123 molded into the button. That is right where the brine line connects to the body.

BLFC molded numbers "50"=0.50; "123"=0.125

BLFC is "25" thanks

 

[BDrivenByDemons]

I think the OP's problem is not fully solved and he is only getting half the capacity of his media. I think the salt treat rate is low, too little brine fill time. Let me explain.

I've been troubleshooting a low brine fill flow rate problem. Some posts on TL helped me come to a conclusion. I have a 5810 with violet #00 injector and 0.25 GPM BLFC orifice. I expected 0.25 GPM brine fill and so did the online vendor, but my flow is 0.125 GPM, half the BLFC 0.25 GPM. I measured actual flow in a precision Menard's bucket with handy quart gradations!

A sticker on the valve body says 0.12 GPM and 0.37 lb/min. Based on some Terry Love (TL) posts I believe that sticker refers to the injector flow rate into the brine well. I would love to see a datasheet for the injectors to confirm.

I used water to understand the flow paths inside the valve body and I see that the injector path is connected to the blfc path. I believe it is in series (not just connected) based on TL posts.

Since OP has the same violet #00 injector, I believe he would also limit brine fill to 0.125 GPM. His fill time 19 min x 0.125 gal/min = 2.375 gal. 2.375 gal x 3 lb/gal = 7.125 lb salt. That is half the treat rate that OP wants for 2 ft^3 media.

Sounds like the air check was a problem, but I think there is more like 1800 gal capacity in OP's system. This would be good 24 gpG and I wonder if the lab was correct. I know the Hach titration test saturates at 30 gpG. I had to use dilution method to measure my 32 gpG incoming.

I'm posting because I want to know if my logic is correct. Bonus for OP if I'm right.

If correct, is there any problem with letting the injector be the limiting factor for flow? I saw another TL post saying the injector should not be the limiter, but I am not sure why that would matter.

First post... Thanks!

I measured my BF, just as you did, @ .28GPM so you need to approx double your calculations. My total salt does is 16 lbs. for 48k grains.

I contacted hach about the 30gpg limit and diluted with 1/2 distilled to measure. Multiple tests (including *not* diluting) give me that same 42.

My system has been flawless since I made the air-check fix and salt use is on par with what the math says it should be.

 

[WaterBoyA2]

I measured my BF, just as you did, @ .28GPM so you need to approx double your calculations. My total salt does is 16 lbs. for 48k grains.

I contacted hach about the 30gpg limit and diluted with 1/2 distilled to measure. Multiple tests (including *not* diluting) give me that same 42.

My system has been flawless since I made the air-check fix and salt use is on par with what the math says it should be.

Thanks for the confirmation. Makes sense. In that case, my hypothesis that the injector flow rate is limiting must be incorrect.

I wonder if I have some solder blobs blocking a flow path. I tore the entire valve body apart today and couldn't shake anything loose. Brine valve looks pristine. Though I saw another post that observed the same and said a new valve fixed his low flow.

Does anyone have a diagram showing the flow paths in the 5810 valve body? Maybe Fleck would provide if I asked. I'd like to understand the injector functions.. Looked like a check ball, orifice and venturi.

 

[Reach4]

Try measuring the flow out during backwash. With a 10 inch diameter tank, expect about 2.4 gpm. If the BF is low, then the backwash is low.

Another thing to check is the injector screen. It does not usually get clogged, but it would be easy enough to check.

 

[Bannerman]

The Brine Fill flow limiting device should rightly be the BLFC button, NOT the injector.

To prevent resin fluidization during the combined Brine Draw/Slow Rinse stage of regeneration, an Upflow system will usually utilize a lower flowing injector compared to an equally sized downflow system.

To ensure the consistant and predictable flow rate needed for Brine Fill, the BLFC button utilized must be a lower flow rate than the injector. If you view the injector chart, you will see the 00 injector flow rate will depend greatly on water pressure and does not exceed 0.25 when water pressure is at the low end of the chart. To prevent the injector from limiting the BF rate, a 0.125 GPM BLFC will be most appropriate for each of the systems discussed above.

The BLFC button is directional as it is designed to compensate for a wide incoming pressure variance so as to provide a consistant Brine Fill flow rate. To function correctly, the BLFC button must be installed with the numbers facing toward the control valve.

During Brine Draw, the brine will flow around the sides of the BLFC button in addition to through the center hole. The BD flow rate is therefore governed by the injector's Draw rate which is to be greater than the BF rate.

Due to the the extra considerations and details needed to correctly configure an upflow system to acheive only minimal benefit for a residential sized system, the usual advice offered on this forum to those that ask in advance of purchase, is to obtain a downflow system.

I contacted hach about the 30gpg limit and diluted with 1/2 distilled to measure. Multiple tests (including *not* diluting) give me that same 42.

The Hach 5B will provide essentually the same result whether the sample is diluted or not. The recommendation to dilute when hardness exceeds 30 gpg, is intended to reduce the quantity of indicator solution needed when hardness is excessive, which will therefore save you money.

I would love to see a datasheet for the injectors to confirm.

Fleck 5800 injector flow charts. (Same as 5810)

 

[Bannerman]

Does anyone have a diagram showing the flow paths in the 5810 valve body?

Fleck 5810 Manual

See pg 26

 

[WaterBoyA2]

Try measuring the flow out during backwash. With a 10 inch diameter tank, expect about 2.4 gpm. If the BF is low, then the backwash is low.

Another thing to check is the injector screen. It does not usually get clogged, but it would be easy enough to check.

Screen is clean. Serviced the entire valve assembly yesterday.

Back flow is limited by the separate BLFC, right? Why did you suggest checking back flow? Is it related to the brine fill?