Questionable Installation Issues with new water heater

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If you do NOT need an expansion tank, there is no benefit to installing one, and it does NOT make the heater last longer in any case. There is no functional problem with the flexible connectors.

The first question is does the OP need one? That is only answered by determining if the system is closed in some fashion. If it is a well with a pressure tank, then no. If the OP is on municipal supply, then there is a good chance that checks already exist (or will be added later) that will prevent backflow into city mains. In that case the OP probably needs an expansion tank. Either that or rely on *something* acting as a relief valve somewhere after showers/baths etc.

I've related in the past how I learned about this the hard way when I changed out toilets. One of the old toilets was leaking down then the pressure spiked during water heater recovery phase. I had checked with a tattle-tale gauge before and it topped out at 100-120. But once the toilet was gone, the pressure spiked all the way to 150 and the T&P was the relief, as seen by puddles. I sure as hell wouldn't want that happening over my head at least once a day.

As far as it whether anything will last longer with an expansion tank (meaning milder pressure cycles), I have developed some respect for the way corrosion concentrates at the more highly stressed locations in metal...and I've seen plenty of water leaks. (Including recurring ones in bends of hot water lines.) Higher pressure = more stress and larger amplitude cycles. Water heaters fail through a combination of corrosion and being unable to withstand the pressure that the could previously withstand, resulting in leaks. While I usually don't get too concerned about pressure cycles in steel pressure vessels, some of my mech. eng. colleagues have been much pickier about it with regard to fatigue failure in carbon steel process equipment...at right about the same cycle count I would expect from a water heater to hit in 10+ years of operation.
 
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In hindsight, I probably could have fixed the old one and gotten a few more years out of it. But I would be taking a chance on it completely rusting out at the bottom. I go up there once a month and drain a couple gallons of water for maintenance. The heat pump quit last month. That's the brand new Trane unit in the photos. During the install I noticed the water heater was standing in water. Got a sponge and soaked up the water, in the bottom of the pan, that was lower than the pipe that exits the drain pan. A few days later it was back. I've been waiting on the heat pump to be replaced before adding insulation to the attic. I decided to go ahead and replace the water heater rather than repair. Now I'm ready for new insulation and won't have people up there stepping on it/compressing it. Maybe. I hope. That's why I want to get this water heater installation "corrected", if necessary.

If it was standing in water there is a good chance it was leaking already or that the T&P was relieving/dribbling. Could have been a fitting leak, I've had those, especially with the plastic drain valves...had one of those crack and break off from the water heater while I was trying to figure out whether it was leaking from packing/threads/etc. That was exciting...

At any rate, if I suspected the tank I wouldn't have chanced it and would have likely opted to replace as you have done.

I also agree with your having some separation from the bottom of the pan to make sure the bottom of the tank is dry rather than have the potential of it being in standing water.
 

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quote; on't ask me why but the manufacturer ships this water heater set up to connect to 3 phase OR single phase.

You do NOT know what 3 phase is. That heater is a single phase heater, but designed for TWO meters, one of them being an off demand time one. As the instructions tell you, and them if they knew how to read, is that IF you only have one meter, you connect the two feeds together and connect your house wire to them.
 

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What is "special" about this heater that you had to "special order" it? With an electric heater "high efficiency" means almost nothing. ALL elements are the same so the only way to make it "high efficiency" is to add insulation and even that adds very little because the normal insulation is quite "efficient". The only thing I see that makes it "special" is the second circuit on the wiring, and you did not need that in the first place. The glass coating, self cleaning system and incaloy elements are the same as every other electric heater. The 3" insulation is the only difference, and as I said previously it does very little to improve efficiency because the normal water heater's exterior is seldom "warm".

It sounds like you were billed the way the old optometrist did. His son had graduated from optometry school and wanted to open is own business, so he asked his dad how he should price his services. His dad told him, "Son, after you charge for the eye exam, you tell them the glasses are $200.00. If they don't say anything, then you tell them the lenses are $150.00. And if they still don't make a comment, you add , "each".
 
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Gary Swart

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I would suggest you replace the CPVC with 3/4" galvanized and run it over to that drain. If that tank really let go, there's no way the pan would handle the water. Flex pipes look OK, they just should not be kinked. If there is a kink, replace the pipe, they come in different lengths, so all that should be necessary it a gently curve. Flex copper is the best way to connect water heaters although I understand some areas require solid pipes. Expansion tanks are a must if you have a closed system. This means if you have a check valve in the water supply. These are usually in a pressure regulator valve, but places are using water meter with a check. What happens in a closed system is since water expands when heated, the expansion need a place to go. A closed system means that the pressure in the tank will quickly rise to 150 psi and the T/P on the tank will open to release the excess water. Sometime poor toilet valves may leak under the high pressure. I doubt if anyone really like a water heater installed in an attic, but that's a problem for another time. Any real plumber or electrician can easily deal with the electrical hookup. Avoid another handyman like the one(s) that did this job. I think a better name for the dealer you bought this from would be "Skins Hardware.
 
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The problem I have with the current flex line arrangement is that they look borderline to kinking. They are not kinked in the photo, but I don't like the amount of bend on the inner radius and the amount of extension on the outer radius. Realistically, if the tank is not moving around and nothing is pressing/pulling down on the lines they should be fine. I haven't played with these to see what it takes to kink them, so this might just be an abundance of caution on my part. If plumbers who use them regularly don't see this as a problem, then I defer to them and their experience.

The flex line angle is probably okay, but it looks like it will substantially increase the velocity at these two points. Pressure drop wise that is probably not going to amount to much except when several draws are being made concurrently and even then it should be manageable. If the velocity is excessive then it can result in erosion, etc. but that is something I'm accustomed to checking for in heat exchanger, tube bundle, and nozzle designs. With this being a relatively short duration draw issue (versus continuous in process equipment I usually work with) the concern is much lower.
 

TVL

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[QUOTE="Whiteland, post:
That brings us to the Brasscraft 18 inch copper flex lines with dielectric sleeve. You can see in the above photo, the flex lines on the AOS are touching the water heater. It looks to me like the new ones are bent too severely and could restrict the water flow. Will the sleeve crack or break at this bend over time?
[/QUOTE]

I will probably get "nailed to the cross" for my comments, but I would like to state:

1- In your photos, it appears the original water heater was installed by a professional and/or a company that desires to do things right ........ even when no one is looking over their shoulder or at the finished product!

2- Your new water heater has been installed and seems to be functioning, but does that mean it was done with high standards in mind? Absolutely not in my opinion!

3- I would honestly like to think a real professional takes great pride in his work and wants things done correctly. Whether anyone else wants to admit it or not, the copper piping was NOT done in what would be considered a normal installation ................ but, your original installation WAS! Sure, to do it correctly would have taken additional time and possibly add a FEW extra expenses ........ but it would have been considered a job WELL DONE!

4- I do realize it is difficult to sometime get good help, but the company owner should also take ownership in his employees work and make the job right. And, I would like to believe they would if notified. Please give them a call as the installation appears as if it were done by some "shade tree" plumber. You sound as if you are like me and want something done correctly. You are not nitpicking and have a reasonable complaint in my opinion!
 

Dana

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I cannot remember when I have heard of an earthquake in Mississippi. A more relevant question would be "Why couldn't the old one be made to work"? An electric heater is a very simple device and should have only taken ONE "attempt", not several. An electric heater is usually only "replaced" when it starts to leak.


Big 'uns aren't likely within the lifecycle of a hot water heater, but at least one moderate to substantial earthquake has happened in MS within the ~100 year lifecycle of a house.

Clearly the swamps of Mississippi are not in a super-seismic activity zone, but like the New Madrid quakes of 1812, it's always possible to be surprised, sometimes in a big way. I wouldn't invest a lot of time on that one- damaging hurricanes or even tornadoes are orders of magnitude more likely in that location. If the gas or water connections fail because the wind just ripped the roof off, it's not as if the water heater is your biggest concern. :)
 

hj

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As the Lone Ranger asked Tonto as they looked at the stars, "What do you think of when you see the stars?" " I think about how small we are compared to the universe. What do you think about"? " I think someone stole our tent."
 
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