Purchased 5600SXT - Should I Not Install It?

[shanec]

I will admit that I didn't do significant research before finding an online retailer (Aplus Water) and purchasing the Fleck 5600 SXT 48,000 grain water softener. I read and watched a handful of online reviews and it seemed that everything about the unit was very positive. I was also optimistic that I could install this myself and could start softening my water for under $750 instead of the $1500-2000+ quotes I was getting from local water conditioning companies (much of what they said also gave me concerns about trusting them).

I have now spent some time reading through this forum and realize that the 5600 is a rather old valve and that the online retailers do not carry the latest Fleck valves because Fleck is following the lead of Clack and opting to distribute through local retails who are more knowledgeable on their products. I assume that the unit I bought is not a bad product, but it is outdated. Will this matter to me in a house with 5 people (three very young kids) and 5.5 bathrooms? We are in Chicago and have roughly 8 GPG of hardness from the lake water.

I have potentially given up on the DIY approach because there is no loop in the plumbing for the water softener and I have concerns about either causing flooding or having to go a few days without water because I shutoff the main and cannot finish the project on my own. Now, professional plumbing installation estimates are coming in at $1000-1200. So, when all is said and done I may end up paying $1700-1800 anyway.

So, my question - If I am going to end up paying that much, should I throw away the Fleck 5600 and go with a better system out of the gates?

 

[Reach4]

That valve is good for about 7 gpm and is usually for 3/4 inch plumbing.

What is the deal with the pipes you are trying to connect to? 3/4 inch copper? Steel? Was there additional plumbing including in the plan to feed the outdoor hose spigots with unsoftened water? Do you have a picture in your mind or on paper of what piping needs doing?

 

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[shanec]

That valve is good for about 7 gpm and is usually for 3/4 inch plumbing.

What is the deal with the pipes you are trying to connect to? 3/4 inch copper? Steel? Was there additional plumbing including in the plan to feed the outdoor hose spigots with unsoftened water? Do you have a picture in your mind or on paper of what piping needs doing?

My main is 1.5" copper (overkill) and there is a branch for the outside irrigation system right after the water meter (shown in the picture below). I was planning to put in a three-valve bypass from the 1.5" copper right after the irrigation branch. The yoke for my 5600 has 1" attachments, but it then drops down to 3/4" for the valve. The best solution I can think of is to reduce the 1.5" down to 1", insert my 1" x 1" x 1" tee that goes to the softener, and then use a reducer (backwards) to connect back to the 1.5" copper after the bypass. Obviously, I will be limited by the throughput of the valve, but I figured it was easier than reducing and replacing the entire 1.5" copper prior to my water heaters.

Thanks,
Shane

 

[Reach4]

Got ya. So the softener connections would be inserted in the vertical 1.5 copper pipe.

If you were going to put in the 3-valve bypass, I would consider a whole-house sediment filter in series with softener. Whether that filter would go before or after the softener is a matter for discussion. The bypass would bypass both the softener and the filter.

A sediment filter is useful for city water. Do you ever see sediment in your aerator screens?

If you were going to replace that 5600SXT valve, the Fleck 2812, which is 1.25, would make sense. Your unused 5600SXT would have a value on an auction site, if you know somebody who does such stuff.

 

[ditttohead]

The 5812 has 1.5" connections available but is technically a 1.25" valve. Plumbing code does not allow you to reduce the plumbing size but... the code is a little more complex than that. In general, for residential applications with 1.5" plumbing the 2850 should be used with the plastic turbine meter but most companies that want to do it right are comfortable with an adequately sized 5812 on a larger diameter tank.

 

[Reach4]

The 5812 has 1.5" connections available but is technically a 1.25" valve. Plumbing code does not allow you to reduce the plumbing size but... the code is a little more complex than that.

I don't know where that would be the code, but I am pretty sure Chicago is not one of those places.

 

[shanec]

Got ya. So the softener connections would be inserted in the vertical 1.5 copper pipe.

Correct, right after that first branch shown.

If you were going to put in the 3-valve bypass, I would consider a whole-house sediment filter in series with softener. Whether that filter would go before or after the softener is a matter for discussion. The bypass would bypass both the softener and the filter.

A sediment filter is useful for city water. Do you ever see sediment in your aerator screens?

I have never noticed sediment, but I will admit that I haven't looked closely. I have noticed hard water deposits, which may be masking some of the sediment.

If you were going to replace that 5600SXT valve, the Fleck 2812, which is 1.25, would make sense. Your unused 5600SXT would have a value on an auction site, if you know somebody who does such stuff.

I don't see the 2812 anywhere online. Did you mean the 5812? I did a quick search and can't find a local retailer who sells and installs Fleck water softeners. Would I likely be able to keep my current media and brine tanks and just swap out the valve? The thought of selling and shipping the media tank is not a pleasant one.

 

[ditttohead]

Shipping is easy. The 5600SXT uses a 3/4" pvc riser, the 5812 when done correctly for your application has a 1.5" pvc riser. The 5812 is available with a riser reducer that reduces t down to the 3/4" pvc riser.

 

[Reach4]

Would I likely be able to keep my current media and brine tanks and just swap out the valve?

Probably. Is the resin loaded into the tank? The 5600SXT uses a 3/4 inch (1.050" OD) distributor tube... the pipe that takes the softened water from the bottom of the tank. So you would want to replace that. If you don't have gravel, you can insert a new tube by running water down the tube. You should have gravel in a softener, however.

You also might find somebody who would want to buy your whole system on Craigslist. Tell the story. Good chance you could find a bargain hunter.

Or install it for your parents or give it a friend who has 3/4 inch plumbing.

 

[shanec]

Probably. Is the resin loaded into the tank? The 5600SXT uses a 3/4 inch (1.050" OD) distributor tube... the pipe that takes the softened water from the bottom of the tank. So you would want to replace that. If you don't have gravel, you can insert a new tube by running water down the tube. You should have gravel in a softener, however.

You also might find somebody who would want to buy your whole system on Craigslist. Tell the story. Good chance you could find a bargain hunter.

Or install it for your parents or give it a friend who has 3/4 inch plumbing.

Yes, resin is already loaded in the tank. I have to be honest that I have no clue if there is gravel in the tank or not. If there is gravel, am I stuck with the 3/4" riser unless I get a new tank?

 

[steppinthrax]

I will admit that I didn't do significant research before finding an online retailer (Aplus Water) and purchasing the Fleck 5600 SXT 48,000 grain water softener. I read and watched a handful of online reviews and it seemed that everything about the unit was very positive. I was also optimistic that I could install this myself and could start softening my water for under $750 instead of the $1500-2000+ quotes I was getting from local water conditioning companies (much of what they said also gave me concerns about trusting them).

I have now spent some time reading through this forum and realize that the 5600 is a rather old valve and that the online retailers do not carry the latest Fleck valves because Fleck is following the lead of Clack and opting to distribute through local retails who are more knowledgeable on their products. I assume that the unit I bought is not a bad product, but it is outdated. Will this matter to me in a house with 5 people (three very young kids) and 5.5 bathrooms? We are in Chicago and have roughly 8 GPG of hardness from the lake water.

I have potentially given up on the DIY approach because there is no loop in the plumbing for the water softener and I have concerns about either causing flooding or having to go a few days without water because I shutoff the main and cannot finish the project on my own. Now, professional plumbing installation estimates are coming in at $1000-1200. So, when all is said and done I may end up paying $1700-1800 anyway.

So, my question - If I am going to end up paying that much, should I throw away the Fleck 5600 and go with a better system out of the gates?

I'm not understanding why you are trash talking the softener. When you purchase thru online retailers it's of course DIY, this is why you are saving several thousand dollars DIY. You have to create the look. You should know how to sweat copper pipes, cut pipes, perform electrical bonding, measure, etc....

At the end of the day this system will more/less function the same as if Culligan did it for you, but you just saved yourself around $4,000.

Not to be harsh, but if you are that scared of touching your plumbing then put the system on craigslist or try to negotiate a return to the seller.

 

[shanec]

I'm not understanding why you are trash talking the softener. When you purchase thru online retailers it's of course DIY, this is why you are saving several thousand dollars DIY. You have to create the look. You should know how to sweat copper pipes, cut pipes, perform electrical bonding, measure, etc....

At the end of the day this system will more/less function the same as if Culligan did it for you, but you just saved yourself around $4,000.

Not to be harsh, but if you are that scared of touching your plumbing then put the system on craigslist or try to negotiate a return to the seller.

I am not trying to trash talk the softener, so I apologize if it came across that way. The reason I bought this valve was because of the great reviews and I like to be hands on instead of just buying a Culligan system that always requires professional repair. But, some people have recently informed me that a 5600 is undersized and likely not to code for a 1.5" water main because reducing the pipes is not acceptable. I am not a plumber and don't know whether or not this would 1) violate code and/or 2) have any negative impact on the system performance in my home. The reason I came to this site was to ask the question of whether I am being misled by being told I need to upgrade to a Fleck 5810/5812 or if I should just keep and install what I already have.

I am not afraid to sweat copper and "get my hands dirty." I have done several plumbing projects around the house, but they have typically involved PEX or PVC and were on branches so I didn't risk messing with the main. But, I also don't want to get in over my head and end up with a massive flood in my basement or (more likely) have to go without water until a plumber can come finish the job. I was likely over-complicating my design by wanting to build in a 3-valve bypass in addition to the 5600 bypass. If I simply use 1.5" male pipe thread adapters and Falcon stainless hoses to connect in the softener, I am pretty confident I could easily complete the work. It is probably frowned upon in this forum, but I could even consider having a few SharkBite push-to-connect male thread adapters on hand in case the sweating doesn't work out as planned.

The real reason I started this thread was to find out if the 5600 is a good solution for me or if I really should upgrade to a 58xx instead. I would definitely appreciate some additional perspectives on this topic.

 

[ditttohead]

Grounding straps with a proper jumper whenever you break copper...

 

[ml1337]

I'm a little surprised by the information in this thread that the 5600SXT might be outdated. I was about to pull the trigger on one. Anyone has more info about this or is it just hearsay? I have 1 inch copper if that matters.

 

[ditttohead]

The 5600SXT is an excellent valve but it has its potential problems. There are many high end valves that are greatly updated but still based on the same basic design principals. The Clack and Fleck 58xx series are greatly improved compared to the 5600SXT. The 5600SXT is vastly superior compared to most of the cheap knock offs that have tried to copy Fleck over the years.

 

[steppinthrax]

I am not trying to trash talk the softener, so I apologize if it came across that way. The reason I bought this valve was because of the great reviews and I like to be hands on instead of just buying a Culligan system that always requires professional repair. But, some people have recently informed me that a 5600 is undersized and likely not to code for a 1.5" water main because reducing the pipes is not acceptable. I am not a plumber and don't know whether or not this would 1) violate code and/or 2) have any negative impact on the system performance in my home. The reason I came to this site was to ask the question of whether I am being misled by being told I need to upgrade to a Fleck 5810/5812 or if I should just keep and install what I already have.

I am not afraid to sweat copper and "get my hands dirty." I have done several plumbing projects around the house, but they have typically involved PEX or PVC and were on branches so I didn't risk messing with the main. But, I also don't want to get in over my head and end up with a massive flood in my basement or (more likely) have to go without water until a plumber can come finish the job. I was likely over-complicating my design by wanting to build in a 3-valve bypass in addition to the 5600 bypass. If I simply use 1.5" male pipe thread adapters and Falcon stainless hoses to connect in the softener, I am pretty confident I could easily complete the work. It is probably frowned upon in this forum, but I could even consider having a few SharkBite push-to-connect male thread adapters on hand in case the sweating doesn't work out as planned.

The real reason I started this thread was to find out if the 5600 is a good solution for me or if I really should upgrade to a 58xx instead. I would definitely appreciate some additional perspectives on this topic.

How big is your house, how many people etc. I'm not sure of the plumbing code in your area or if it's permitted. I have 3/4" coming into my house that tapers down to 1/2" throughout the house. It could just be possible that this is what was used. 1.5" leads me to believe you have a multi-story multi family house, almost like a commercial unit.

I know when picking from places like A-Plus water or discount water softeners they allow you to choose a 1" or 3/4" bypass. This leads me to believe that some order a softener to fit 1" piping coming into their house. I don't think that extra 1/2" is going to make much of any difference. One thing to consider is that most of these softeners are going to have a 14psi drop across the entire system, by it's nature.

 

[Reach4]

How big is your house, how many people etc.

In his first post, he says 5.5 bathrooms, 5 people.

One thing to consider is that most of these softeners are going to have a 14psi drop across the entire system, by it's nature.

That is not the case. That was the implicit point of this thread...

 

[ditttohead]

Uniform Plumbing Code does not allow for the reduction of plumbing size in order to accommodate a softener. UPC is the baseline, local codes can be made stronger, never weaker based on UPC.

https://view.publitas.com/impact-water-products/2018-catalog-final/page/48-49

here is a short article I wrote on the topic.

 

[Reach4]

Uniform Plumbing Code does not allow for the reduction of plumbing size in order to accommodate a softener. UPC is the baseline, local codes can be made stronger, never weaker based on UPC.

Illinois code does not have such a section as UPC 610.2. Its section Section 890.760 does say that the vertical air gap for a softener drain has to be at least 2 inches!

Looking at UPC 610.2, maybe plumbing in a pressure gauge or two would give you the specific pressure drop information!

610.2 Whenever a water filter, water softener, backflow prevention device or similar device is installed in any water supply line, the pressure loss through such devices shall be included in the pressure loss calculations of the system, and the water supply pipe and meter shall be adequately sized to provide for any such pressure loss.
No water filter, water softener, backflow prevention device, or similar device regulated by this code shall be installed in any potable water supply piping when the installation of such device produces an excessive pressure drop in any such water supply piping. In the absence of specific pressure drop information, the diameter of the inlet or outlet of any such device or its connecting piping shall be not less than the diameter of such water distribution piping to the fixtures served by the device.
​

In any case, even in a UPC area, it is not clear to me that shanec would be bared from a 5810. A bit of showing calculations and pressure drop numbers would seem sufficient. Heck if 14 pounds of drop is not excessive, ....

Looks like whole house cartridge filters would be forbidden possibly.

 

[steppinthrax]

Illinois code does not have such a section as UPC 610.2. Its section Section 890.760 does say that the vertical air gap for a softener drain has to be at least 2 inches!

Looking at UPC 610.2, maybe plumbing in a pressure gauge or two would give you the specific pressure drop information!

610.2 Whenever a water filter, water softener, backflow prevention device or similar device is installed in any water supply line, the pressure loss through such devices shall be included in the pressure loss calculations of the system, and the water supply pipe and meter shall be adequately sized to provide for any such pressure loss.
No water filter, water softener, backflow prevention device, or similar device regulated by this code shall be installed in any potable water supply piping when the installation of such device produces an excessive pressure drop in any such water supply piping. In the absence of specific pressure drop information, the diameter of the inlet or outlet of any such device or its connecting piping shall be not less than the diameter of such water distribution piping to the fixtures served by the device.
​

In any case, even in a UPC area, it is not clear to me that shanec would be bared from a 5810. A bit of showing calculations and pressure drop numbers would seem sufficient. Heck if 14 pounds of drop is not excessive, ....

Looks like whole house cartridge filters would be forbidden possibly.

This statement is interesting

"the diameter of the inlet or outlet of any such device or its connecting piping shall be not less than the diameter of such water distribution piping to the fixtures served by the device."

I'm not sure if that is UPC or just Illinois, but in my house the plumbing comes in from the well at 3/4" then as it runs down the length of the house it tapers down to 1/2" for each fixture.

My house is not a hack job and no one messed with the plumbing, this is the original plumbing when the home was constructed. All copper.

I'm reading this to mean that as long as the water softener dosen't have a diameter below the 1/2" (smallest pipe) you should be fine (in my case).