Price per fixture ???

[Geniescience]

laugh with me

randy,

from what you said of the guy and his wording to you, it didn't smell good over where i am, thousands of miles away... if that is the best talk you get now, it'll only get worse, after you've done a few days and money is owed, and then it'll get even worse after that.

Your last post makes me think you may get tough on an abuser, by saying "No". However, in spite of all the warnings every single person has provided, there are always newcomers willing to be conned, in every field. Any field. New DIY, new plumbers, new in anything.

So, i'll mention this: if you (or anyone else who thinks he might like to work for a builder doing a favor...) really want to play for free or almost for free and take on risks that you cannot control, and that you cannot even evaluate at the outset, then at the very least get paid daily.

I know i have played with fire and gotten badly burned, all just to acquire experience and judgement. Occasionally, I thought I knew how to turn tables on these guys and get paid, like when once I got a ("future-") scammer to write postdated cheques before the job started. I said I would be calling them at every time I had finished a billable step and that we would negotiate which cheque I could take to the bank, and he could always put a stop payment on them if things didn't go as expected. Would you like to know how that one went? Wait a minute.

IF... He pays you daily, $400 a fixture or more, you have him on a short leash but you've still not taken charge of the situation. This will allow you to get conned or squeezed or stiffed for a bit less than the whole thing. When a small dispute or disagreement arises (e.g. whether finishing only 99% is grounds for demanding payment), then you will see how he works the angles. If you get post-dated cheques in advance on the understanding that you won't cash them until he agrees, you may think you are in the driver's seat. My experience learned the hard way taught me never to operate on their level, as they have all the experience - at this level -- and you have little.

david
p.s. see http://www.beforethearchitect.com/19DS.htm for humor telling people to pay for services rendered

 

[Master Plumber Mark]

turning the tables

I had a builder once that promised me ALL 125 condos -- ranch homes

if I would do them all for a very low , low price......

about 35% lower than my bid.... and he gave me his word on this....

(yea right--his word isnt worth nothing)


I fired back at him with this offer....... I would do the first

120 of them for my price.....

and then I would thre last 5 condos for FREE....

and I gave him my word on it too.....


the fellow did not know what to say......

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Kordts]

The Means estimating book markup is from 230 percent to 190 percent. I just furnished a double check detector valve to a mechanical contracting company for a fire service main. I called my local supply house and they quoted me a little under 1600 hundred. I doubled it and added 300 bucks for the test I will perform on it. The best part is that it was accepted, and then I called a different supply house and their price was 1450. They dropped it off at the job, I didn't even have to be there, and made 1750 just on the valve I still get paid to come up and test it

 

[Randyj]

Kordts... sounds like the kind of job that I like from time to time just to keep the wheels greased....

 

[Kordts]

Yep, I will love it even more when I get paid. The bad thing about commercial is that I send the invoice and usually get paid 27 or 28 days later.

 

[vaplumber]

I would not price by fixture. It might work out well if all fixtures are in one or two back to back rooms but when you find that some fixtures are 50 feet apart and maybe in a second or third story you get ralphed. If some contractor wants a per fixture price have a look at the job, figure a total and divide by the total number of devices.

 

[Randyj]

The only way I see to come out on a "per fixture" price is that the job has lots of little things like ice maker connections...which pay the same as a tub/shower hookup. The first time I heard of such pricing was several years ago and I thought it was plumb goofy. I was in the feed store business and found that it was stupid that the old uneducated feed store owners had been marking up horse feed $1 per bag whether the bag of feed cost $3 or $10...and customers thought I was insane because I was trying to get a 20% margin...none of them knew the difference between a margin and a mark up. You definitely have t sell a helluva lot of feed just to pay the light bill. Apparently this price per fixture ideology is something people came up with because they were either too lazy to properly study and price a job or because, like the old feed store operators they just didn't have the math skills to calculate cost and profits.

 

[007plumber]

007plumber

New to this forum so hello to everyone! I have been fortunate enough to have worked with some of the finest plumbing companies in my area. I have also did everything from clearing sewers to piping multi-story buildings and still learn something new every day. I have been in business for some time now and bid jobs in diffferent ways. Per fixture pricing will work only if your material price doesn't fluxuate alot. The small speculative housing is where we see the most of this. Usually in these type projects the houses have 4-6 different plans and the plumbing layouts are similar. Of course this system does not work well on large custom houses. Recently, with the increase of gas and copper prices everything has went up, (pvc,copper, etc). The old school way of bidding is still the best I think. (I did not go to the old school as I am too young,but I have learned alot from those old farts!). Figure out what it cost to put a truck on the road per hour. Doesn't matter if this truck has a payment or not, pretend it does. You will have to figure a plumbers salary,a helper, w-comp,liability ins., overhead,(gas, oil, repairs ,etc. ). If it cost you say $68.00 an hour to leave the shop you don't want to work for $50.00 per hour. I have a saying that " I can sit on the front porch and at least break even ! There are a lot of people out there that will work for next to nothing, I have shoveled tons of dirt,threaded miles of pipe and crawled under the dirtiest houses there are, I am not giving my services away and you shouldn't either. Sorry for the long post, It's my first. Thanks

 

[Dunbar Plumbing]

A remodeler that I know of does the following:

Replaces water heaters for $75

Rebuilds Delta PB T/S faucets for $25

Get this: Replaces steel tubs for $300 < includes $89 tub < new tub faucet (owner supplied) as well ?????????

Installs faucets for $30

Rents drain cleaning equipment and does jobs for $30-$50


No way no how this guy is paying taxes. If he did....he knows the grim discovery of negative operations..

 

[vaplumber]

Rugged I agree with you. And he cant have much insurance, over head, etc at that cost. I cant imagine this rates even in mexico!

 

[Cass]

A remodeler that I know of does the following:

Replaces water heaters for $75

Rebuilds Delta PB T/S faucets for $25

Get this: Replaces steel tubs for $300 < includes $89 tub < new tub faucet (owner supplied) as well ?????????

Installs faucets for $30

Rents drain cleaning equipment and does jobs for $30-$50


No way no how this guy is paying taxes. If he did....he knows the grim discovery of negative operations..

He is in negative territory as far as $$$ goes and doesn't know it. He can't be paying taxes, he not making enough to cover his overhead.

Taxes are a whole other subject. I have studied tax law for 15 years. If the American public understood it like it is written they would have revolted long ago.

The problem is it was written on purpose, by lawyers (98% of politicians are lawyers), specifically so it would be extremely difficult to understand.

The only instance, in all of Title 26, where any American has any income tax liability due, at all, by working a job, is if that work is performed in a foreign country. Period.

 

[Randyj]

It took me a little while to get confidence and to develop a few regular customers. When I first started I ran into a property manager for a large property management company. I took a job replaceing tubs in apartments where I had to rip out metal tubs with ceramic tile surrounds and replace them with fiberglass tubs (sterlings with 3 piece surrounds). I took these at $300 each plus ALL materials at cost. I got it at this price with a minimum of 3 tubs per job. I added on for such things as adjusting walls or breaking out concrete floors to re-set the drains. Before that I was in a bad situation and even $300 per week was survival money. It was good money at that time. The job is typically 12-14 hours. As I've gotten more experience I've gotten much more closer to the pricing of other small time plumbers because I KNOW that I'm doing it RIGHT and have gone up to $500-600 for the same job (depending on distance and neighborhood). Typically, I do the complete swapout and rough in drywall with a decent 1st coat of mud...and replace the t/s faucet valve and plumbing as needed. They have to worry about any flooring issues as well as finish the sheet rock and paint....and compared to all serious plumbers I know of I'm still dirt cheap and do a much better job. Locally That same job was running $550 5 years ago and the plumbers were doubling on cost of materials. I'm still in awe at how sloppily houses and apartments are built. I've had to modify shower partitions that were 1" out of square just to make the tub fit not to mention those that there was not adequate provison for the plumbing which ended up being offset because there was no where to put it so things would be centered. Kinda goes back to my old theory of bidding...figure out what I can do it for then double on that to get the CYA price. Lots of plumbing companies around are charging $800 -1200 for the same job...plus materials they double on cost of.

 

[Randyj]

Yet another new construction, different contractor. This house is 3 1/2 baths with one outside spigot. All pex & pvc. I got down and dirty with the pricing and gave myself a little buffer for stuff I probably forgot to include ($500) and still came out with a per fixture price of $450...14 fixtures in all, $6,300 with me supplying all the stops, pipe, plumbing supplies. I figured only $300 per day for 14 work days which was to include digging trenches and setting the fixtures...all the designing, gophering, etc. turnkey plumbing job. I was beat out by another guy who took the job for $300 per fixture/$4200...my raw labor figure!!!!.... looks like I'll be sticking to repair work or just quote $550 per fixture/pex or $700 / copper... sight unseen rather than wasting my time grinding the numbers. If they don't want my price, the heck with them. I'm not spending another day or two figuring a job knowing I'm not going to get it anywhere near scale prices...no way I'm going to take the risk or do that much work CORRECTLY for a welfare price on a luxury home. 50-60 miles away in the big city it's $800 per fixture and there are inspections... I'm holding up my prices and if I have to I'll be driving that 50-60 miles rather than working for minimum wage..... fugg'em....

 

[Dunbar Plumbing]

$300/fixture opening is what we was getting in 1991. !!!


That guy just shot that price to turn numbers, not make profit.

Now, who's to blame? The plumber that offered that low-ball price because he's afraid he might have to stay home one day and twittle his thumbs thinking the sky is falling.

If plumbers all worked together in coordination with each other....they could make more money but setting thresholds NOT to cross when it comes to these new construction jobs.

But reality is each and every plumbing shop has their own set of rules and rarely interconnect with other companies. Kind of the do it alone practice I myself do.

Here's an interesting occurrence this weekend:

Customer called, was going down the yellow pages and told me both of his bathrooms on the second floor are clogged. I was in pain that day and didn't really want the call, told him, "You know that is not going to be cheap to take care of that. It's going to cost $225 to pull that toilet and unclog the line."

Instantly he said in a brash voice, "I'll have to call you back on that." That's the last I heard of him.

I know and talk to a service plumber for another company, 15 letters down the alphabet from my company name. We conversed the same day that call came in and actually did the work for the guy with the clogged system.

He proposed the opportunity of "$150 for the call".......BUT, when he got there, the service plumber stated that if he had to pull the toilet that there would be a $85 additional charge to do so.

Well, customer was hoping the closet auger would fix the problem but in reality from a plumber's point of view.....that clog is down on the vertical somewhere where a closet auger will never touch it.

It was a bait and switch tactic that I really don't like to do to my customers when I know damn right well that it's going to require the removal of the toilet to remove the obstruction.

Customer got charged $235 for the call, $10 more than my offer to clear the obstruction.

Customer stated they called everyone in the book and couldn't get anyone to come out.

The reality of what that customer said was this,

Customer called everyone from A to Z in the book, couldn't find anyone less than $200 to come out and fix his problem. When he heard that someone would come out and FIX his problem for $150, he was the bait.

It was the tactic to give the $85 higher charge at the door that destroyed the idea of a good deal at this point.

The customer probably feels no matter what, he was going to spend at least $225 because everyone was ranging in the same playground. And what is $10 over one of the first few guys you called offering the work.

I had no intentions of offering my services if he called back due to my knee problem anyway and the busch series race was on at 3pm. I just don't go for people calling, getting a price, calling back after they can't find anyone cheaper and expect me not be insulted by their choices solely off price and not professionalism or quality of workmanship.

But then again, it's only drain cleaning. A clogged drain.......whoooooopeeeeeee!

 

[Coz]

I go 1000 per fixture & water heater extra. I list exactly what faucets, shower valves and sinks i am installing. If they want more expensive fixtures its an extra. Have a contract!!!! If you lose money at this rate find a new trade. Even at 800 per fixture you can make money.

 

[Randyj]

I've been quoting $450 per fixture (do not include shower valve, water heater, or the fixtures) that's just one cold, one hot, one drain...or $150 per line. I only provide a stop or a cap.... and I'm still batting zero with these contractors whether it's copper, cpvc, or pex.... I'll find another line of work before I go any lower. I've come down to $200 to swap out a customer provided water heater (super easy access in a crawl space, next to door)...then ran into this guy the other day who's doing it for $100-$125...and driving 26 miles round trip to pick up the water heater. NO WAY!!!! If I'm working for someone who has a family income of $75k and up..and living in a $150k-$500k house then I'm damn sure not doing it for less than $300 plus materials... if I made $1500 per week I'd still be better off with a $50k job working for a plumbing contractor.... right now I'd love to be making $1500 per week!!! or even $1000...but last week I had a couple of quickie jobs and made $700 in two days which is very good around here.

 

[Dunbar Plumbing]

I've been quoting $450 per fixture (do not include shower valve, water heater, or the fixtures) that's just one cold, one hot, one drain...or $150 per line. I only provide a stop or a cap.... and I'm still batting zero with these contractors whether it's copper, cpvc, or pex.... I'll find another line of work before I go any lower. I've come down to $200 to swap out a customer provided water heater (super easy access in a crawl space, next to door)...then ran into this guy the other day who's doing it for $100-$125...and driving 26 miles round trip to pick up the water heater. NO WAY!!!! If I'm working for someone who has a family income of $75k and up..and living in a $150k-$500k house then I'm damn sure not doing it for less than $300 plus materials... if I made $1500 per week I'd still be better off with a $50k job working for a plumbing contractor.... right now I'd love to be making $1500 per week!!! or even $1000...but last week I had a couple of quickie jobs and made $700 in two days which is very good around here.

You know who has the final say in whether you are making money or not?

Your CPA/accountant. They know your numbers better than you do.

My CPA tells me things I don't want to hear...and I'm in year 4. He's looking at the YTD and I'm looking at the hits and misses. He's looking at what you made AFTER the dust settles and the bills are paid........well most of them.


So whatever you tax man sayeth, remember that they don't gain whether you make $300 or $3000 per fixture. The bottom line is you have to figure out how much time you invest a month in comparison to what you make over the year, divide by 12. There is your hourly rate!

I average around $30/hour after taxes and bills paid. I'm okay with that. It could be a great deal more but I'm leaning on the low side to be careful.


Nobody gets wealthy/rich on $30/hour in this day and age. That's middle class average median range. Nothing fancy.

 

[Kordts]

Actually, if ya stopped to think about it, we (owners) should get two draws. One is for our hourly wage, or paycheck, the other, or dividend should be what an owner makes off a successful business. Otherwise we own a job, not business, and are contributing to the downward spiral. I talk the talk, but I am not walking the walk. I pay myself 25 an hour, but when the business can afford it, I write myself disbursements. since I am an "S" Corp, it's tax free, baby. I try to disburse a grand a month, but it's hit or miss.

 

[hj]

price

Rereading the original, I have a couple of questions. You say that if you take the job you will need a license, permit, and insurance. Why in the world would you be doing ANY work at all without having them already. Without a license, the customer can refuse to pay you and in most areas you would not have a leg to stand on. And if you set a house on fire, you definitely want insurance. The permit speaks for itself.

 

[Randyj]

The original post was near the end of last year. I've already renewed my licenses. In this county bonding & permits are not required unless in the city limits. As for insurance ... if I were to take a new construction job I would pick up the insurance. For these mickey mouse repair jobs I totally trust my work. If I decide to take on box store installations for a few bucks then the insurance will be required and I would be glad to have it. I realize most of America is a litigious society but I'm good for the fact that by law I have to be given a reasonable opportunity to correct or make good on any job. I've been in business on my own since 1992 and have never had an incident that would have resulted in an insurance claim...and I've never had insurance on my business...(I've only been in the plumbing business for 5 or 6 years). If I had employees I wouldn't dare operate a service business without it. As for the accounting... I cost out every job that I bid before taking it. If I can not clear at least $30 per hour I won't touch it. By the time I consider my down time I've got to average taking in at least $300 every day that I work 8 hours and usually work 2-3 days per week and vary widely. I'm in the process of building a house, so the 2-3 days a week lets me work one day for them and one day for me....about a break even situation... I'm balancing making money as fast as I spend it on the house...oh yeah, as for my accountant, she absolutely loves the way I put my books together for taxes...I pay my bills as soon as they come in and can look at checking and credit card accounts online and can tell you how far I am behind or ahead at any time...tho' I may never know "how much" I've made since the last fiscal year...if I ain't got it then it don't matter...time to make more! I want to get some of the new construction work around here but if I've got to do cut throat bids then I'll let those guys have the new construction which will keep them out of my hair while I go for the more lucrative work. I'd rather work 2 days a week at $50/hour than work all week for $10/ hour.