Pressure Loss

[jferello]

Hey all,

I bought a new house 3 months ago and it came with the following water system.

64' well, 48' pump, 20' static, 10+GPM pump -> CSV valve -> 40/60 pressure switch which never drops below 40psi -> 20gal Pressure tank with 35psi of air -> Big blue filter with 5 micron filter -> Autotrol 24k water softener -> Ecosystems iron/sulfer AIV10 -> Soda ash contact contact tank/stenner chemical pump -> inside plumbing fixtures.

The last water test before we bought the house was taken from the valve at the pressure tank:
pH 6.8
Harness 9
TDS 280
Iron 0.6

We do have hydrogen sulfide, hence the Ecosystems filter and if we bypass it we get bad rotten egg smell.

I believe we have clear water iron as the water from the valve near the pressure tank comes out clear then turns reddish after awhile.

On to the issue at hand, we seem to only be getting around 3-5GPM in our house, if we flush a low flow toilet and try to use the kitchen sink at the same time we almost get a dribble. The hose bib outside is after all the equipment and it is pathetic, even with nothing in the house running.

I recently added a CSV valve into the mix since our pump would fill the pressure tank in 30 seconds or less. In adding this valve in I found that our 1" well pipe has been reduced to about 1/2" due to iron build up, not sure how to resolve this.

Anyway, since we have a 20gal tank, it holds about 4.5 gal of water and the pump was able to fill this in about 30 seconds, so we should be getting at least 8GPM to the pressure tank; where we are loosing the other 4GPM is the mystery.

- I have bypassed the Ecosystems filter, same issue, and the Ecosystem is rated for 10+GPM.
- I have changed the filter in the Big Blue, same issue, and the Big Blue is rated for 10+GPM.
- There is nothing to bypass for the Soda Ash system, since its just a contact tank and there is no bypass, not sure this would be the problem anyway though?
- There is no bypass valve installed on the water softener, so I cannot test this. I know the injector screen and injector were just cleaned about 2 months ago. Also, it was rebeded in 2014. Note, the Autotrol does have a flow meter and it does not work, I have tested the probe with a magnet and it works, so I am guessing the turbine in the output tube is not spinning to really dirty, would this cause the lost pressure?

My plan this weekend is to fill a 5gal bucket with our hose and see how long it takes, then I am going to re-plumb the hose bib to the pipe between the pressure tank and the Big Blue, then time the 5gal bucket fill again.

Any other ideas?

Some other random questions:
- Any idea how to clean the 1" pipe from the well head into the house? It should be about 15-20' long. The iron buildup in the pipe is easily moved with a finger.
- Should the Ecosystems be moved in front of the water softener? Since my iron PPM is lower than 1 they might only be using the Ecosystems filter to remove the sulfur.
- Should the hose bib be plumbed before or after the Big Blue?
- Do I even need a water softener with a hardness of 9-10 and iron at 1ppm?

 

[Reach4]

64' well, 48' pump, 20' static, 10+GPM pump -> CSV valve -> 40/60 pressure switch which never drops below 40psi -> 20gal Pressure tank with 35psi of air -> Big blue filter with 5 micron filter -> Autotrol 24k water softener -> Ecosystems iron/sulfer AIV10 -> Soda ash contact contact tank/stenner chemical pump -> inside plumbing fixtures.

Your pressure tank is undersized. So if that fails, I would replace it with a 44 gallon tank that would give at least 10 gallons of drawdown.

I would put the hose bib pipe before the Big Blue. It can even go before the pressure tank, but usually after.


For the hose bib, you could consider instead adding a new spigot instead. It is occationally nice to have softened water available for filling a herbicide spray tank or for some car washing. You don't want to do watering with the soft water.

I would have expected that the water softener should be after the iron/sulfur filter. So I would do that change. A softener will work much better if the iron is removed first. A softner will remove iron, but it needs a lot more care and capacity and salt to do so. I would expect the softener after the soda ash acid neutralizer since that adds hardness.

Regarding the Big Blue filler, before again changing or inspecting the element, I would have a replacement O-ring standing by. If you could get the old O-ring back in place, your water system would pretty much out of commission until you get the new O-ring. I like to lube my O-ring very lightly with silicone grease when putting things back together. I like the DGD-5005-20 Pentek Whole house filter for a 20 x 4.5 housing. It is variable 50...5 micron.

While plumbing consider adding a boiler tap and/or pressure gauge or so. There are inexpensive pressure gauges that will screw onto the garden hose thread of a boiler tap. Imagine how handy that would be for identifying pressure drop and deciding if it is time to change the filter element.

I don't know your iron+sulfur filter. Does it use bleach?

It is unusual to not have a bypass for a softener. It can be done externally with 3 valves. Quarter turn ball valves are nice.

Your thought of a stuck turbine/paddlewheel makes sense, but I have no experience. http://www.softenerparts.com/Meter_Turbine_460B32_1033057_p/ap460b32.htm lists a video.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[jferello]

Your pressure tank is undersized. So if that fails, I would replace it with a 44 gallon tank that would give at least 10 gallons of drawdown.

Not really, this only controls how often the pump has to turn on, the pump directly should be capable of supplying 10GPM @ 40PSI without the pressure tank.

For the hose bib, you could consider instead adding a new spigot instead. It is occationally nice to have softened water available for filling a herbicide spray tank or for some car washing. You don't want to do watering with the soft water.

I am going to leave the existing pipe plumbed after all the equipment and just add a tee and a valve to accommodate the new pipe, so I will be able to switch between. I have will have a valve to turn off the filtered water too.

I would have expected that the water softener should be after the iron/sulfur filter. So I would do that change. A softener will work much better if the iron is removed first. A softner will remove iron, but it needs a lot more care and capacity and salt to do so. I would expect the softener after the soda ash acid neutralizer since that adds hardness.

I tend to agree with this, even with my limited knowledge. I believe they added everything one after another, and from different vendors, just trying to fix each problem, instead of re-working the whole system. The only thing I worry about with moving the iron filter in front is that when it gets all clogged up, I have no idea how to service it; Ecosystems does not offer any information. With the water softener, there is tons of information on Autotrol valves, I could probably rebuild one in my sleep

Regarding the Big Blue filler, before again changing or inspecting the element, I would have a replacement O-ring standing by. If you could get the old O-ring back in place, your water system would pretty much out of commission until you get the new O-ring. I like to lube my O-ring very lightly with silicone grease when putting things back together. I like the DGD-5005-20 Pentek Whole house filter for a 20 x 4.5 housing. It is variable 50...5 micron.

I do have a new o-ring and silicone lube just for this. I will check out those filters, here is the one I just recently bought:

While plumbing consider adding a boiler tap and/or pressure gauge or so. There are inexpensive pressure gauges that will screw onto the garden hose thread of a boiler tap. Imagine how handy that would be for identifying pressure drop and deciding if it is time to change the filter element.

I do have a couple actually and I have the pressure gauge to put on there.... duh!! I will test that tonight. But I don't think the problem is pressure as much as it is volume, right?

I don't know your iron+sulfur filter. Does it use bleach?

No, it uses a proprietary bed of something. Sorry, actually it is called the Ecowater Systems AIV-10
http://www.ecowatersofteners.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/ETFAIV.pdf

It is unusual to not have a bypass for a softener. It can be done externally with 3 valves. Quarter turn ball valves are nice.

I know, right? I will have to do something.

 

[Reach4]

No, it uses a proprietary bed of something. Sorry, actually it is called the Ecowater Systems AIV-10
http://www.ecowatersofteners.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/ETFAIV.pdf

Zeolite media, according to that link. Zeolite appears to be primarily a sediment filter, and with its backwashing abilities, it should be no problem to go pretty much first. Some kind of chlorination or other oxidation first would let that filter remove the ferric iron (rust). It seems that you have a fair amount of that.

That contact tank and Stenner pump seems interesting. Name the chemical that you put into your solution tank that the pump draws from. I think you need somebody with more knowledge to weigh in. I suggest photos of stuff. That both gives information quickly, it tends to get more attention.

Uploaded photos must be 800 pixels or less and under 200KB. I like Irfanview to shrink and compress photos. Photos hosted on an external site are not limited.

 

[jferello]

Here is a closeup of my well pipe, this is a section I cut out:
http://imageshack.com/a/img673/4382/UokRVw.jpg

Here is the chemical that I mix with water in the Soda Ash solution tank:
http://imageshack.com/a/img661/7584/EbsSQh.jpg

Here is my entire water system with descriptions:
http://imageshack.com/a/img538/9266/AWLi9i.jpg

Here is the same picture as above, but full res:
http://imageshack.com/a/img673/5725/HWVnMr.jpg

 

[Reach4]

Nice photos. I suggest that you make a new thread in https://terrylove.com/forums/index.php?forums/pumps-and-tanks-well-forum-blog.4/ with just the pipe cleaning part of your questions with this photo in the post:

To put the eye-catching picture into the post directly, click the mountain icon, and paste the URL for the image into the box.

 

[jferello]

If you were going to re-plumb everything, would you use PVC, CPVC or PEX?

 

[jferello]

If I re-plumb everything, is this a good layout?

 

[Reach4]

I would move the Big Blue after the EcoWater ETF AIV-10 iron filter, and probably after the soda ash unit.

I would consider adding a boiler drain after the EcoWater ETF AIV-10 to serve as a place to draw drinking water into a jug in case you would want to later. This can also serve as a place to put a garden-hose-thread pressure gauge. It could also serve as a place to draw a sample if you wanted to measure the effectiveness of the EcoWater ETF AIV-10 at some point.

http://www.manualslib.com/products/Ecowater-Etf-Aiv-10-3663095.html is the iron filter manual. Page 5 starts "Place the filter as close as possible to the pressure tank (well system)"

 

[Bannerman]

Wherever you finally place the Big Blue filter, it should also have a bypass as for example, the sump could become damaged, thereby disabling your entire water system until a replacement can be obtained.

 

[jferello]

Wherever you finally place the Big Blue filter, it should also have a bypass as for example, the sump could become damaged, thereby disabling your entire water system until a replacement can be obtained.

What do you mean the sump? Is that a part of the Big Blue?

 

[jferello]

Ok, how about this layout now?

 

[Reach4]

By sump, he means the blue part that unscrews. I wish I had done that for mine. I keep extra O-rings handy and I have an extra housing, including sump, but a bypass would be handy. I even have the two in-series valves, but I do not have the path around. :-( I know I can leave a housing empty if an element were to clog and I did not have a spare.

In fact, I have 3 Pentek Big Blue housings in series, because I bought those before deciding to get the backwashing iron+sulfur filter. I leave the first housing empty. I could probably leave the first two housings empty. I put a polypropylene 50...5 micron filter in the middle housing and a polypropylene 1 micron filter in the last housing. I have about 17 months on the elements. Never use celulose elements with a non-chlorinated system.

 

[Reach4]

I like that. I probably would have put the BB before the softener, but I don't have a strong reason for that. Your method will have the advantage of catching any resin beads or fragments.

Regarding piping, you are not supposed to be putting in new PVC for pressurized water. Note that CPVC and PEX are smaller inside than the corresponding nominal sizes of copper or PVC. So you might consider doing the whole path in 1 inch PEX or CPVC. Somebody might have a suggestion for the relative merits of those.

 

[jferello]

Wait, so new plumbing is not supposed to be PVC anymore? How come?

Right now, I have about 5-8' of new PVC where my CSV got installed.... plus you mentioned about replacing the well pipe with PVC instead of poly?

Thanks,
Justin

 

[Reach4]

Wait, so new plumbing is not supposed to be PVC anymore? How come?

Right now, I have about 5-8' of new PVC where my CSV got installed.... plus you mentioned about replacing the well pipe with PVC instead of poly?

Thanks,
Justin

CPVC is better for hot water because hot water will deteriorate PVC over time. So why not spec it for only cold in the code? I guess by saying to use CPVC always, they simplify it for inspectors. So functionally, PVC for your use would be good. PVC is less flexible but may be stronger (don't know) , and PVC is still used buried pipes and outside use.

I would not remove existing PVC carrying cold well water.

I mentioned replacing the well pipe with PVC instead of poly? I said that? I wonder what I might have been thinking. On which post did I say that?

Edit: I see that http://www.manualslib.com/manual/858984/Ecowater-Etf-Aiv-10.html?page=5#manual says "Use copper, brass or PEX plastic pipe and fittings." You could take that into consideration maybe.

That page also says "ALWAYS install the included bypass valve, or 3 shut-off valves." Check to see if there is a built-in bypass valve already.

 

[jferello]

I guess the best idea is to run PEX for everything, since there is no issue with that as far as heat or my iron filter specs. PEX has the same issue as CPVC with regards to ID, right? So 1" PEX is closer to 3/4" copper?

There is a bypass on the iron filter, but I will still build the 3 valve style so I can remove it fully if need be.

I am wondering if my volume problem is just the plumbing, I did not realize that CPVC does not have the same ID as copper. Right now everything after the pressure tank is 3/4" CPVC which is really close to 1/2" ID; so my main is downsized to 1/2" before it gets to any fixtures or even the hot water heater. Then after all the equipment it goes from 3/4" CPVC to 1/2" copper as the main run to all fixtures.

This sucks, I need to re-plumb everything, this is going to cost so much

 

[jferello]

Here is my updated filtration system map:

 

[jferello]

Reach,

I figured out partially what the pressure loss was from. I changed out the Big Blue filter, it was jet black and the water in the sump was jet black. As soon as I swapped this out, we had good pressure again. The reason I did not check that initially was that the water guy said they should last anywhere from 3-6 months, we had just barely gotten to 3 months.

How come you suggested that other filter instead of the cellulose filters, when one has an iron problem?

Also I took apart my water softener and found that the turbine was indeed stuck, I replaced the assembly. This had no noticeable change in the pressure.

Thanks for the information so far.
Justin

 

[Reach4]

Cellulose filters should only be used with chlorinated (or equiv) water because bacteria can use them as food. http://www.extension.org/pages/31571/drinking-water-treatment-filtration says

1. Pleated paper - These filters are the most economical but are not reusable. They are sensitive to water with low or high pH (less than 6.5 or greater than 8.5). Use them only when the water contains no active bacteria, which feed on the cellulose portion of the filter.

But polypropylene filters can clog like any other filter cartridges. However backwashing filters get washed out periodically, so they don't clog. Plus they are usually much bigger. But even better, a backwashing filter can contain media that triggers oxidation of the ferrous (clear) iron to rust, which can be filtered out. So the best deal is to have a backwashing iron+sulfur+etc filter at the front end. Then follow that with a big blue polypropylene filter, and that element will last months.