Pressure drop after 6 years, assumed fouled resin? Fleck 7000SXT resin needs for ~3,500 grains needed per day.

[Mike Hawk]

Valve: Fleck 7000SXT
Water source: City water (river), Oklahoma RWD#5
Tank size: 12x48
GPG: 8-13
Gallons used per month: 8,000 (ouch). 2 adults and 2 kids. Wife and one kid take ~1-2 baths per week. Shower daily.

Our system:

When I ordered this system back in Q4 2015 I had a 64,000 system setup from the seller. 'Murcia? Bigger is better? 8% resin imported from out of USA, ie probably really junk stuff that all the online sellers sell. Water pressure was great for several years. A few years later we got a significant decrease in water pressure. I had never cleaned or dosed cleaner in the system. Just added cheap salt (ie no iron remover salt). My bad. Live and learn.

The system has been in bypass mode for ~2 years now. Started it back up the other day and it seemed to have great pressure for a bit but then after a day or so pressure was down again. I'm hoping/assuming it's just fouled resin and I just need to remove and replace the resin? I'll rebuild the valve if I have to but I've never done a rebuild. Hope it's not the valve since it had good pressure for a day or so. (shrug)

With the size of the current system (64,000) and our usage, it looks like it was regenerating every ~18 days. Probably not good for the life of the resin from what I'm reading and that 7 days is a better target? Looks like I could squeak by on a 24,000 grain system? 24,000 / 3,467 grains needed per day = 6.92 days between regen?

Tank didn't have a gravel bed. Guessing 1.0cf of 10% resin should be good enough after I reset the Fleck settings? Is a 12x48 resin tank big enough for us? How much 10% resin do I need? Which are reputable brands/sellers of resin? Where to get? Also, what sort of gravel do I need to get and how much?

It was hard to get a contractor out here, I guess they only like do do new installs? Finally got at least one plumber out here and he took one look at our system and poo poo'd a resin removal / re-bed that we were asking for and said our system wasn't big enough and needed a 72,000 grain system. IE he just wanted to do a complete removal of all equipment and replace everything. I'm taking his input with a grain of salt though.

Speaking of salt, the salt turned orange while not being used for 2+ years. I'm assuming that's iron/rust? Remove/replace the salt or throw in some iron out or better iron salt?

Thanks in advance!
-Mike

 

[Mike Hawk]

Oh and this was in our first stage sediment filter back around the time right before I switched into bypass mode.

It was slightly pondy tasting but reminded me more of chalk, slightly gritty in texture. Was this resin goop? Calcium? Algae? Notice how half the filter container was filled with this junk. Ugh.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[WorthFlorida]

The plumber that came out suggest a new larger unit because it probably is faster to replace than repair and guaranteed to work. There are a lot of posts on this forum with issues with softeners that never seem to work after changing parts. They are a bit more complicated especially with regen on demand and setting up proper programming. A person can spend hours or all day changing out the resin then only to find out there could be other problems. I'm not saying that it is his reason or the softener may only need a resin change but that goop on the filter?? It what might be clogging up the resin. Another issue is deposing of the resin. It's heavy, hard to handle and to dispose of.

If you want to try it, remove all that old salt and throughly rinse out the bin. Fill it with water and iron out and do one or two regens with iron out. After each regen run the cold water at the tub to throughly rinse out any rust that may have been left behind. If the water pressure seem OK, fill it with salt and run a regen.

 

[Bannerman]

Either chlorine or chloramine (chlorine + ammonia) is most commonly utilized as a sanitizer in municipal water supply systems. Constant chlorine exposure will compromise and degrade any resin, but resin with higher crosslinking such as 10% CL, will better tolerate chlorine over a longer time period compared to standard resin (8% CL). Since it seems your system was obtained online, it would not be surprising if it contained resin that has significantly lower crosslinking than 8%. Some prior posters on this forum that purchased online systems or from big box stores, experienced resin failure in less time than you.

The appropriate tank size for 2 ft3 resin + gravel under-bedding is 12" X 52" which will provide sufficient freeboard space to expand and reclassifying the resin during each regeneration cycle. Many online systems do not include gravel since gravel is heavy and because shipping costs are included within the purchase price, online dealers often claim gravel is not necessary so as to not only save the small cost of gravel, but mostly to reduce the shipping expense. Since those systems do not include gravel, to further reduce the dealer's costs, the resin tank size will be often reduced to 12" X 48" which will further reduce the shipping expense in addition to the cost of the tank itself.

For your 12" diameter tank, 20 lbs of 1/8" X 1/16" bedding gravel is appropriate. To provide the necessary 50% freeboard space, recommend installing no more than 1.7 ft3 new 10% resin. Better still, if a backwashing carbon filtration system is utilized to remove chlorine/chloramine, chlorination byproducts and other contaminants before the softener, then standard 8% resin maybe utilized.

Since most North America produced softener resin is available in both 1 ft3 and 0.5 ft3 bags, and as 1.7 ft3 is not a standard quantity, you could utilize 1.5 ft3 (Total 48,000 grains hardness removal capacity) to re-bed your system.

To obtain higher efficiency to provide high quality soft water, the usual recommended salt setting is 8 lbs per ft3. With 1.5 ft3 resin, that will require 12 lbs salt to regenerate 36,000 grains usable capacity per regeneration cycle.

Previously, when fixtures were less efficient, water consumption had been estimated at 75-gallons/person/day. Now, due to low flush toilets and higher efficiency plumbing fixtures and appliances, 60-gllons per person per day is usually utilized for estimates, so your 67 gals/p/d is not necessarily out of line.

36,000 gr / 3484 gr/day (67gal X 4ppl X 13 gpg) = 10.33 days - 1-day reserve = 9-10 days estimated regeneration frequency.

Because your chlorinated municipal water will not contain iron, the usual recommendation is to size the system for regeneration to occur between 1X/week to 1X per month so 9-10 days will be appropriate.

 

[MaxBlack]

Oh and this was in our first stage sediment filter back around the time right before I switched into bypass mode.

It was slightly pondy tasting but reminded me more of chalk, slightly gritty in texture. Was this resin goop? Calcium? Algae? Notice how half the filter container was filled with this junk. Ugh.

Hmm your sediment filter is AFTER the water softener ("resin goop")? It should be ahead of the softener.

You say you had great pressure initially but then...clog somewhere? This sediment filter???

 

[Mike Hawk]

Hmm your sediment filter is AFTER the water softener ("resin goop")? It should be ahead of the softener.

You say you had great pressure initially but then...clog somewhere? This sediment filter???

It's a 5 stage RO system in the kitchen to a single faucet for drinking/cooking water. Sorry that it wasn't clear. I have no pre-filter before the softener.

I'm just wondering if the white goop might be related to the softener issues. Probably more likely related to maintenance since I hadn't changed the RO filters in ~2.5 years (oopsie!). The water tasted a bit 'off' from the RO faucet. However the wife is the only one that really uses the RO drinking water and she doses her water bottle with a magnesium supplement so I think it masked the off taste and smell or we would have noticed the "goop" much earlier.

Pressure throughout the house is diminished when the softener system is hooked up. As soon as I go into bypass mode, normal pressure resumes. From searching on here seems to be a common occurrence with fouled/bad resin.

 

[Reach4]

Flush the sediment out of your water heater. Not related to your current problems, but while you are in maintenance mode, good idea.

I don't know what that goop is. Water heaters can sometimes generate that, but water does not go from your WH to that filter. Maybe your water department could have a clue, because they use some additive?

Do dump the old contents of your brine tank into a garbage bag. It's time for that too.

When you replace your resin with 10% crosslinked resin, also clean the injector screen and injector because it is time for that too. I also expect to post suggestions for the setting. Do find the BLFC and injector numbers, usually on a label under the cover.

 

[Mike Hawk]

Oooh yeah, water heater, gotta check that one. Had to actually replace it ~2018 since the water softener killed it since I wasn't on top of the sacrificial anode rod. Can you start to see a theme here that I'm horrible on maintenance upkeep?

 

[Mike Hawk]

Oh and where to get gravel and resin? Anyone got some links they can hit me up with. Obviously I'd like to get the gravel locally at a big box store if I could.

-Edit, looks like I need to go to a plumbing supply house for the gravel, man I love expanding my brain.
-Edit 2, blargh, the local plumbing supply that sells to the public doesn't carry bedding gravel.

 

[Mike Hawk]

Thoughts on going 2.0cf of Aldex C-800x10 10% vs 1.5cf? I found an online supplier for pretty cheap and the cost difference between 0.5 and 1.0cf bags is pretty negligible. If I go with 2.0cf would it still be 20lbs of gravel?

My next question is gonna be just what all the friggen settings I need to put into my Fleck7000SXT to get it programed.

 

[Reach4]

1. I might buy the 15 lbs of gravel, instead of 20, to save the cash, buy 2 cuft of resin, but only load maybe 1.85 to 1.9 cuft of resin. Or maybe load the whole 2 cuft, as long as I have a top basket (on the bottom of the valve).

2. Easy once you provide the info mentioned in the last paragraph in #7.

 

[bingow]

On a learning curve here: but is pool salt OK for softeners? Also, would aquarium gravel work as bedding gravel? Walmart has it.

 

[Bannerman]

One of the benefits of gravel under bedding is to act as a barrier to reduce the potential for resin loss into your home's plumbing system in the event the bottom distributor basket is ever compromised. The appropriate quantity of gravel is determined by the diameter of the tank, not the quantity of resin contained. The 20 lbs gravel previously recommended, is appropriate for a 12" diameter tank, to ensure the bottom distributor basket will be fully buried within the gravel.

Since the inclusion of cheap, low quality components such as the bottom basket is a common occurrence in water treatment equipment purchased online, suggest replacing the current basket and riser tube with a quality Fleck or Clack version when rebedding your system.

The recommended amount of backwash media expansion for a softener is ~50%. When the tank contains too much media for the tank size, then the Freeboard space will be reduced so the drain flow rate will need to be reduced which will result is less media expansion during the backwash phase of regeneration. If the drain flow rate is not reduced, the media will be lifted too high within the tank and will be forced against the upper screen which over time, can damage the upper screen regardless of the quality of the screen. When relying on the upper screen to prevent loss, if/when the upper screen becomes broken, then the excess resin media will commonly be lost to drain during subsequent backwash cycles, which is why the lower quantity of resin (1.5 ft3 = OK, Max 1.7 ft3) was specified.


Pool salt is not appropriate for use in a WS. Only utilize water softener salt.

Aquarium gravel is not NSF certified for the treatment of potable water. Gravel that is appropriate for water treatment will likely be available from a local generic water treatment professional.

 

[Mike Hawk]

Wondering if it's worth it to upgrade from the 12x48" tank to a 12x52" tank?

Pros: Easier to swap, won't have to clean out the resin. More softening capacity? More efficient use of salt?
Cons: More $. Have to dispose of old tank

 

[WorthFlorida]

Wondering if it's worth it to upgrade from the 12x48" tank to a 12x52" tank?

Pros: Easier to swap, won't have to clean out the resin. More softening capacity? More efficient use of salt?
Cons: More $. Have to dispose of old tank

Orange County Florida (Orlando) waste collection center does not charge for hazard waste items. Ten years ago I disconnected the WS that came with the house that was non functional. It was in bypass mode for I do not know by the last owner. Check your waste collection. I looked up as I assume you're in the City of Broken Arrow. https://www.brokenarrowok.gov/government/public-works/solid-waste-recycling/hazardous-waste-disposal

 

[Reach4]

I would not swap out the 48 inch tall tank for a 52.

 

[Mike Hawk]

Well I went ahead and got a Oceanic prefilled 2.0cf 10% (with gravel) 12x52 <shrug>

Took my old tank out, neither bottom nor top strainer were collapsed/blocked. The resin was a bit mushy, didn't all look spherical, so I guess that's my problem?

Couldn't start up the new tank though cause it came with a 1" tube and the Fleck 7000 needs a 32mm tube (1.25 inch). I ran down to the big box store only to find out 1 inch PVC isn't the same thing, blargity blarg blarg. So here I am ordering a $40 32mm tube off the internet that'll work with my 7000 and my new 52" tank.

Does someone have a dummies guide to programming the 7000 with the new specs? Need ~3500 grains per day, 2.0cf of 10% resin. Here's the only label I could find on the valve. Was that from the factory or the 3rd party vendor that sold me the unit?

 

[Reach4]

Assuming 13 grains/gal.
Need ~3500 grains per day??? what is that in gallons, maybe 270? The 7000 has a mode where it learns the needed reserve. I will assume you will use that mode.

Here is setup info based on an older table:
System info (not programmed)
salt lb/cuft : 8 ; A choice ( efficiency vs capacity)
BLFC : 0.25 ; Brine Refill rate GPM
cubic ft resin : 2.0 ; Same as (nominal grains/32,000)
Raw hardness : 13.0 ; including iron etc
Estimated gal/day : 270.0 ; 60 gal per person typical calc
Estimated days each regen : 11.4 ; presuming days each use reserve capacity

Fleck 7000SXT Settings:
DF = Gal ; Units
VT = dF2b ; Downflw/Upflw, Double Backwash
CT = Fd ; Meter Delayed regen trigger
C = 48.0 ; capacity in 1000 grains
H = 16 ; Hardness grains after compensation
RS = cr ; Cr = base reserve on recent experience
CR = 0 ; 0 is default (leave it)
DO = 14 ; Day Override (typ 28 if no iron/Mn)
RT = 2:00 ; Regen time (default 2 AM)
B1 = 8 ; Backwash 1 (minutes)
Bd = 60 ; Brine draw minutes
B2 = 5 ; Backwash 2 (minutes)
RR = 6 ; Rapid Rinse minutes
BF = 21 ; Brine fill minutes
FM = t1.2 (usual) ; t1.2 is default flow meter
========================================

Here are alternate numbers
The less salt per cubic ft, the more salt efficient, but more hardness breakthrough.

BLFC = 0.25
cubic ft resin = 2

Alternative C and BF pairs:
lb/cuft ; C= ; BF=

5.250 ; 37.2 ; 14
5.625 ; 38.6 ; 15
6.000 ; 40.0 ; 16 #good choice for less salt usage
6.375 ; 41.5 ; 17
6.750 ; 43.1 ; 18
7.125 ; 44.6 ; 19
7.500 ; 46.1 ; 20
7.875 ; 47.5 ; 21 #good choice for less hardness leakage
8.250 ; 48.9 ; 22
8.625 ; 50.2 ; 23
9.000 ; 51.3 ; 24
9.375 ; 52.4 ; 25
9.750 ; 53.4 ; 26
10.125 ; 54.3 ; 27
10.500 ; 55.1 ; 28

 

[Mike Hawk]

Yup, around 270 gallons a day. Seems crazy high, but I wash dishes every night and take a long shower.

Thanks for all that wizardry. I went stupid overboard with a 400 lb salt tank.