Pool Heat Pump Breaker size

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SDexcalibur

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Good Afternoon All,

Hopefully someone can help me out. I just picked up a barley used Hayward HPA 50K btu heat pump. The breaker box is about 75 feet to where the pump is going to be located. I was planning on running 10G wire to the pump and make the connections. My questions is what size breaker should I use. A similar sized heat pump from another company recommended 12G wire if with in 50 feet and 10 G for 50-150 feet from the box and just a 20 Amp double pole breaker. I looked online and couldn't find anything.

I will include a link to the pool heat pump manual. Thank you all and happy fathers day if it applies. heat pump manual
 

wwhitney

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The unit should have a data plate on it. Can you post a photo of the data plate? It should include lines like MCA (Minimum Circuit Ampacity) and Max OCPD (or Max Fuse).

Cheers, Wayne
 

SDexcalibur

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I don’t know why I couldn’t turn the picture around, but looks like if I use a double pole 30 amp I should be fine?
 

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wwhitney

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Since it says "Max Fuse 30A" you will need a fused disconnect for the unit, e.g. something like this:


(not sure if that comes with fuses or you get those separately). Since you need a disconnect next to the unit anyway, not a big problem to use a fusible one. The branch circuit can be supplied by a 30A breaker in your panel.

You also need a regular receptacle within 25' of the unit for servicing it, so if you don't have one already, you'd want to run a second circuit out to the unit for that, and maybe stick the disconnect and the receptacle on a post or something like that.

As for conductor sizing, the MCA (minimum circuit ampacity) is 20A. So if you are using any 60C wiring method in the circuit (say NM cable inside, converting to outdoor wiring at a junction box on the outside wall, into which the NM cable enters the back), you will need to use #12 Copper conductors. If you wired the whole circuit with a 75C wiring method (say, THWN-2 in PVC conduit all the way to the panel), you'd be OK with #14 Copper conductors, because the usual 15A/#14 and 20A/#12 limits don't apply to motor circuits. But probably wise to stick with #12s.

Cheers, Wayne
 

SDexcalibur

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Thank you Wayne for all the input. Clearly I'm no electrician but have run outlets before. I've done enough to get myself in trouble. TBH I'm just trying to save myself a boat load of money from the quote I received. I know I'm paying for experience and knowledge. I'm pretty sure I follow you but does this sound right

1. New Double 30A breaker in the panel, hook up the white and black to each pole( if that is the right word) and the ground to the ground bus, no neutral
2. Drill hole through house run #12 wire along the house to the pool area 75' away thru in 3/4" conduit, gluing all the fittings
3. Run wires to the disconnect box you provided a ling for.
4. Hook up the hots to the load side and the new wires going to the pool heater to the line side, Hooking up both grounds
5. from disconnect run wires in flexible tube to the heater.
6. Run #8 bare copper wire from heater to grounding rod, (Have to put one in, not sure where the copper wire that connects the pool pump goes to, we bought the house like this)
7. Run another bare copper wire from the heater to the pool pump and connect it to that copper wire.



I do have a receptible on the deck about 30' away. I know it's not less than 25 but should be ok.

The only reason I mentioned using #10 wire is because of the distance. If your says 75' from the panel is fine with the # 12 wire then I will stay with #12

I know this is a big ask but do you think you can build me a shopping list from Depo? At least the wire size, service disconnect, flexible wire from the disconnect to the heater, I know you don't know the run for the conduit and the bends. I rather not make 100 trips to the store. I can Venmo you some money for your time and help. Just PM me your info. This has been super helpful

When I picked up the heater I checked out the wiring setup and they didn't have a service disconnect anywhere. Just wired directly from the panel. The service disconnect is cheap enough. I just want to make sure I'm doing it the right way. Again thank you for your help.
 

wwhitney

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Preparation of the shopping list is beyond the available scope of assistance. You can try to come up with one and post it for comment. Or better, a little diagram showing the layout of the house, panel, path run to the pool, how you plan to wire each portion, etc. Looking at how the power for the pump motor is run may be informative.

As to your circuit description, you haven't specified the wiring method. You'd only have white and black at the panel if using NM (or another) cable; if you are running conduit all the way to the panel, use red and black (stranded THWN-2). And if you have NM at the panel, the NM can't extend outside of the house (beyond a junction box mounted on the siding), so you'd be splicing over to another wiring method for the outdoor portion.

On (1) you need a torque screwdriver for making the proper connections to a breaker. On (2), you glue up all the conduit first, with no more than 360 degrees of bend between pull points, and once the conduit is complete, you pull in the wire. On (4) you have the sides reversed.

On (6) you don't install any additional grounding rod. Pool bonding is an important area with which I have no experience. My understanding is that there should be a bonding grid at the pool, which is under the perimeter of the pool deck (assuming in ground), connected to the shell of the pool (if it's conductive, like concrete), to any metal within 5' (IIRC) of the water, to the water itself (if the shell isn't conductive) and to the pool pump EGC. You'd connect the heat pump EGC to that bonding grid, IIRC. But this part is something worth paying an electrician to do, to confirm the correct pool bonding.

Cheers, Wayne
 

wwhitney

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That would be an unusual choice. 12/2 or 10/2 UF wire could be run for the whole circuit, both within the building like NM cable is, and outside direct buried or inside PVC conduit. But running cable inside conduit is inefficient, individual conductors like THHN/THWN-2 would be more efficient (most all THHN is dual rated THWN-2 these days). E.g.


Cheers, Wayne
 

Afjes

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If you scroll down to "More Details" on the listing that wwhitney gave you the link for you will see if is dual rated.

Much of the wire on the shelves at Home Depot (individual conductors) on spools the outside packaging does not state THWN but looking thru the clear packaging on the spool and looking at the imprint on the insulation of the wire itself you will usually see that THWN is printed on the insulation.
 

wwhitney

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The whole different wire for different applications is pretty new to me. Only really used NM 14/2 wire (romex).
Then this project is a bit of leap for you. You might consider trying to find an electrician who would let you do the trenching and give you a quote reflecting that, and pay attention to the details of their install.

The 10/2 UF you linked to (or you could use 12/2 UF, the voltage drop for 75' at 240V for the 12A normal load is only 1.3%) can be used for the entire run from the panel to the fused disconnect without splicing. It could be direct buried 24" deep (24" of soil on top of the cable), but would need a sleeve for the vertical portions where it comes up out of the ground, starting at least 18" deep.

Or you could run a complete conduit system from a box on the outside of your house to the disconnect location, and that would only have to be buried 18" deep. With the UF in the conduit, 3/4" PVC would be just large enough for 10/2 but 1" PVC would be better; 3/4" would be OK for the 12/2.

But with a complete conduit system it would be far more typical to splice wiring methods in the box on the outside of your house. You could use NM cable inside the house, entering through the wall and the back of the box. And then use individual THWN-2 conductors within the conduit, in which case 3/4" PVC is fine for the (3) #10 conductors. This is likely how an electrician would do it.

Cheers, Wayne
 

SDexcalibur

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Thank you. I truly am grateful for your explanation and time spent answering my questions.
 

JerryR

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Local Grounding and Bonding rules for pool devices can be tricky. Check with local building department what they require.

Usually inground pool rebar, metal handrails, pool screen cage metal, pumps, heaters etc must be bonded together with solid copper.
 

Afjes

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SDexcalibur: As wwhitney said, this project may be out of your limitations due to your experience. As mentioned bonding for swimming pools is very tricky. It is not something you want to guess at or attempt to do just by reading on the Internet and going to a DIY forum. Errors can be deadly when it comes to water and electricity as they do not play well together.

I would not buy any materials at this point. If you want to attempt to save some money on the labor portion I would highly recommend that you FIRST find an electrician that would be willing to work with you on this before you do anything. The reason is because many electricians don't want to take on your liability on their insurance when you do the work. They like to know exactly what went into the project from start to finish, especially when it comes to swimming pools (inground or above ground).

It may be very difficult to find an electrician who is willing to pick up where you left off - I know I would not do it and I know many others feel the same way. It would be my responsibility if something were to happen.

You may want to bite-the-bullet and pay to have this done properly. Not all electricians have the special knowledge of the proper bonding necessary for swimming pools so make sure you find one that does. You may want to call around to swimming pool companies to find out who they use to wire their swimming pool equipment that they sell and contact one of them.
 

SDexcalibur

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Thank you all for your insight. To be safe than sorry I think I'm going to have to go the electrician way. The pool and equipment is already there and bonded correctly we are just adding the heat pump.
 

Afjes

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Good choice SDexcalibur :)

Until I retired a few years back I was a licensed electrician. I went to school for it and was also certified.
I would not even work on swimming pools as they require special knowledge.
 

PowerWorld

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My brother works as an electrician, and he taught me one rule - always leave a power reserve for the conductors and if you're pulling wiring somewhere, think about the possible need to add something else to it. I'm grateful to him for that. When I decided to add an inverter heat pump to my pool filter pump, taken on the advice of the same brother through the heatpumppw.com platform, the extra capping pipes and power left on the electrical panel allowed me to hook up the new equipment without any problems. So if you're not stingy, make a power reserve in the conductors.
 
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