PEX fitting dezincification issue?

[Sean Briselden]

Hi everyone, we are currently under contract on a house and the inspector found this potential issue and I am curious about your takes on it. I am asking for a plumber to go take a look at these and from what I read I am getting pretty nervous about what this means for the entire house. Should I be nervous about this or is some of this normal and even with this corrosion there is a low likelihood of failure?

House was build in 2003.

I am not your normal homeowner, I do a ton of stuff myself and don't usually shy away from issues. But this one has been wondering.

 

[Jeff H Young]

Dont have an intelligent answer never heard the word dezincification. dosent look good but wonder if there is seepage or condensation on the fitting. also manufacture rep or inspector have an opinion? if it was to leak Im wondering if the pipe, fittings, and crimp rings are a differant manufactures if they would all point thier finger at each other? I think my uponer system is over 20 year warranty. Im not totaly alarmed but it aint my house and I could repipe it if it was

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Gsmith22]

do a google image search and see if you run across known dezincification images and compare to what you have. It looks a lot like dezincificaiton so if I was in your shoes, I would assume that it is dezincification (house construction is certainly in the right time frame). Only way to know for sure would be to remove a brass fitting and have a metallurgist evaluate the brass. Have the plumber take a fitting apart and repair - have a metallurgist examine the brass. Plumbers aren't metallurgists. Dezincification happens in yellow brass (high zinc content) but not red brass (low zinc content). Its more common on the hot water side (heat causes the corrosion process to accelerate) and it generally appears in water with low mineral content and can be helped with high dissolved oxygen. Is this well water or municipal supply? Does the house have a water softener (that removes calcium and magnesium)? Calcium and magnesium generally plate out on the inside of plumbing and water heaters (which is its own separate issue) but that also provides a protective coating to the inside of the brass reducing dezincification. So a water softener could help with the plating out but accelerate the dezincification - essentially two terrible choices ala a presidential election . Lots of chemistry to ponder. If you can prove dezincification via the metallurgist, you likely can get a reduction in house price (assuming you still want it) knowing the potential repiping that is going to have to occur and all of the finish damage that will likely need to be corrected to access the piping.

 

[Sylvan]

Personally I would RUN,RUN,RUN away

 

[Jeff H Young]

To each their own I wont dump a house over a repipe . negotiate

 

[Sylvan]

Dont have an intelligent answer never heard the word dezincification. dosent look good but wonder if there is seepage or condensation on the fitting. also manufacture rep or inspector have an opinion? if it was to leak Im wondering if the pipe, fittings, and crimp rings are a differant manufactures if they would all point thier finger at each other? I think my uponer system is over 20 year warranty. Im not totaly alarmed but it aint my house and I could repipe it if it was

"dezincification" is very common with Yellow brass which contains 60% copper and 40% Zinc as opposed to Red brass 85% copper 15% Zinc

Most of this type of piping failures is on hot water lines as the piping become brittle

 

[Gsmith22]

if this is the only issue and otherwise want the house, then negotiate. Since an inspector found it, they now have to disclose it to any future prospective buyer (this is where the metallurgist comes in handy to forensically prove the issue exists) so its not like they probably want you to walk away. So your negotiating power goes way up especially if you don't mind doing some of the work yourself and/or get a quote to have it done so you understand what you are getting into. For the sellers, its like now trying to sell a car that doesn't have compression in several of the cylinders - there is an overhaul coming and it gets priced into negotiations.

 

[Plumber69]

Almost looks like it wasn't crimped right. No Go. And its leaking a very small amount

 

[JohnCT]

Almost looks like it wasn't crimped right. No Go. And its leaking a very small amount

Yep, could be a bad crimp or it could be the fitting failing. Either way, there are fittings behind the walls that are in the same shape..

John

 

[Jeff H Young]

Probebly knew copper and zinc makes brass but in one ear out the other Ill remember it now thanks Sylvan!
I mainly see uponer and not the crimp rings. I did a bunch of hydronic heat that was all Uponer as well. Isnt the crimp mainly for diy 'ers.
My house plumbed by others in 2002 has pex with the manifold and all home runs pex right to the anglestops. prefer copper myself

 

[Sean Briselden]

Hey all, thanks for the replies. I have been slammed for the last day scrambling for what to do. I talked with a local plumber and he said a little of this is pretty normal around here. We are on city water so we wouldn't have to worry about a catastrophic failure, instead if something failed it would be a a very small drip leak that would eventually show up and cause minimal damage. He is going to go out on Monday and investigate it as well as a low flow on the hot side at the kitchen. I am a bit worried the 2 are related but he will be able to find out for sure.

And then.....we found out last night the roof needed replacing in the next 2 years...and then a few hours later the appraisal came back 50k below contract price. We are negotiating and asking for them to pay for a new appraisal so we'll see what happens. The universe may be telling us to steer clear of this place...we'll see.

Any idea how long a metallurgist would take to check out the brass?

 

[Sylvan]

A tiny leak behind a wall may not be noticed for days even weeks depending how much insulation there is

A leak can lead to mold and the other problem is opening and closing the walls /ceilings and if it is behind tiles you are not going to be able to match them

My next door neighbor was selling a house with a large foundation crack and the structural engineer reported it is going to get a lot worse

They sold the house "as is"

A man bought the house sealed the crack with Sakrete and then had the foundation painted on both sides to cover the crack and sold the house less then 4 months later for over $150,000 more then he bought it for and he moved to Texas

 

[Jeff H Young]

Hey all, thanks for the replies. I have been slammed for the last day scrambling for what to do. I talked with a local plumber and he said a little of this is pretty normal around here. We are on city water so we wouldn't have to worry about a catastrophic failure, instead if something failed it would be a a very small drip leak that would eventually show up and cause minimal damage. He is going to go out on Monday and investigate it as well as a low flow on the hot side at the kitchen. I am a bit worried the 2 are related but he will be able to find out for sure.

And then.....we found out last night the roof needed replacing in the next 2 years...and then a few hours later the appraisal came back 50k below contract price. We are negotiating and asking for them to pay for a new appraisal so we'll see what happens. The universe may be telling us to steer clear of this place...we'll see.

Any idea how long a metallurgist would take to check out the brass?

No idea on the metalurgist if you called one you might ask him. Either way the purchase is based on your acceptance of condition so if you cant get adequate answer in time I guess you could agree to cancel escrow.
I dont think low flow is related to the tarnished fittings. could be a plugged areator at sink who knows ? or house had a partial repipe?
A report from a metalurgist may or may not be of help as some opinions on here lead to a poor joint which might have no relation to the quality of the brass . I can think of many reasons for a crimp to seep that have nothing to do with poor brass.
Not to scare you off but a leak can be a small thing, often is a small thing, but a small un noticed leak can get pretty moldy. Id do some checking as you are to see what your comfortable with. Also wont this be an issue that should you sell the house youll have to disclose? perhaps not if you have in writing that an authority gives the plumbing a thumbs up

 

[Fitter30]

Uponor tech support 888.594.7726 first call I'd make and try to get to someone in that fitting dept.

 

[Jeff H Young]

Uponor tech support 888.594.7726 first call I'd make and try to get to someone in that fitting dept.

Or whichever company applies. could be three differant companys pipe, fittings, crimps,
Fitter 30 great Idea as Uponer would most certainly have some insight. I thought Uponer was all expander style?

 

[Gsmith22]

call Uponor but I doubt they want any part of this - they use expansion fittings and whatever this brand is, it is not Uponor. Metalurgist will tell you if the brass has lost its zinc and any resulting zinc oxide compounds present at the surface of the brass from the chemical process. They will also be able to tell you if this is yellow brass (which dezincifies) or red brass (which doesn't). Explain to them what you are trying to do/determine and see if its in their wheel house. If not, move on to someone else. But my guess is your seller will say this isn't "dezincification" up until you prove that it is. Between this and the roof, sounds like you have lots of negotiating power.

Low flow on hot water side is most likely the zinc being leached out of the fitting(s) and the resulting zinc oxide compounds blocking the pipe internally - search it online its very common occurrence with dezincification. Also, there is no way this is a leak at the fittings if you are finding it in many places. One or two fittings - sure might be a leak but if you find it everywhere not leaks- systemic issue.

 

[Jeff H Young]

call Uponor but I doubt they want any part of this - they are expansion fittings and whatever this brand is, it is Uponor. Metalurgist will tell you if the brass has lost its zinc and any resulting zinc oxide compounds present at the surface of the brass from the chemical process. They will also be able to tell you if this is yellow brass (which dezincifies) or red brass (which doesn't). Explain to them what you are trying to do/determine and see if its in their wheel house. If not, move on to someone else. But my guess is your seller will say this isn't "dezincification" up until you prove that it is. Between this and the roof, sounds like you have lots of negotiating power.

Low flow on hot water side is most likely the zinc being leached out of the fitting(s) and the resulting zinc oxide compounds blocking the pipe internally - search it online its very common occurrence with dezincification. Also, there is no way this is a leak at the fittings if you are finding it in many places. One or two fittings - sure might be a leak but if you find it everywhere not leaks- systemic issue.[/QUOTE


Kind of lost me there . Are you thinking to call uponer because they manufactured the brass fittings? or just general info.
Any opinion you say its a common occurance just crap system pex ? I still run all copper. done a small amount of pex for heating

 

[Sean Briselden]

Yeah....still working on it. so Uponor would be able to identify the fittings if I have a part number off the fitting? Is that where you are going with it? The realtors are talking and we should have a plumber going out tomorrow to reinspects a few things including the fittings. I can get some better pictures of the fittings and make some calls.

 

[Gsmith22]

I'm not saying to call Uponor. fitter30 in post #14 suggested it and Jeff H Young in post #15 seemed to think it was a great idea. Those fittings, pipe, and clamps are not Uponor which is why I said "I doubt they want any part of this". So I don't recommend calling Uponor but I suppose you could try to get a manufacturer label or part number off of a fitting, figure out who it is (which will be the impossible part), and call them about it. But I would point out that companies with this issue had to settle class action lawsuits so I doubt they are going to self-identify or fess up over the phone. Zurn really got in hot water over this issue (pun intended) so they might be a potential fitting manufacturer.

I'll repeat again, the only way you get certainty out of this is to have a metallurgist examine a fitting. That will tell you several things - which type of brass this is (yellow brass dezincifies, red brass doesn't), what compound the white residue is (typically the zinc pulled out of the fitting forms zinc compounds that clog the fitting on the inside), and the condition of the base brass metal. When the zinc is pulled from the brass, it leaves a porous hollow copper left behind that is weak. Removing the fitting will also give you an indication of how bad the corrosion is on the inside of the fitting and if it is blocking the pipe (ie how long do you have until one of these gives out or fully clogs a pipe). I would get a plumber to remove the fitting(s) so they can repair the pipe and carry any liability for the removal and repair part and then a metallurgist to examine the fitting to provide certainty over what is happening. This is probably going to cost several thousand dollars which pales in comparison to what you are going to pay for the house and the mess you could inherit with that.

This procedure would be the way to guarantee someone can't shit on the results and deny the problem doesn't exist. What does your attorney for the purchase say about this? you want it documented and incorporated into the sale so there is no question what the condition is, where responsibilities lie, and how it should get paid for/negotiated into the price. everything else is just bullshit arguments over the internet.

 

[Jeff H Young]

I'm not saying to call Uponor. fitter30 in post #14 suggested it and Jeff H Young in post #15 seemed to think it was a great idea. Those fittings, pipe, and clamps are not Uponor which is why I said "I doubt they want any part of this". So I don't recommend calling Uponor but I suppose you could try to get a manufacturer label or part number off of a fitting, figure out who it is (which will be the impossible part), and call them about it. But I would point out that companies with this issue had to settle class action lawsuits so I doubt they are going to self-identify or fess up over the phone. Zurn really got in hot water over this issue (pun intended) so they might be a potential fitting manufacturer.

I'll repeat again, the only way you get certainty out of this is to have a metallurgist examine a fitting. That will tell you several things - which type of brass this is (yellow brass dezincifies, red brass doesn't), what compound the white residue is (typically the zinc pulled out of the fitting forms zinc compounds that clog the fitting on the inside), and the condition of the base brass metal. When the zinc is pulled from the brass, it leaves a porous hollow copper left behind that is weak. Removing the fitting will also give you an indication of how bad the corrosion is on the inside of the fitting and if it is blocking the pipe (ie how long do you have until one of these gives out or fully clogs a pipe). I would get a plumber to remove the fitting(s) so they can repair the pipe and carry any liability for the removal and repair part and then a metallurgist to examine the fitting to provide certainty over what is happening. This is probably going to cost several thousand dollars which pales in comparison to what you are going to pay for the house and the mess you could inherit with that.

This procedure would be the way to guarantee someone can't shit on the results and deny the problem doesn't exist. What does your attorney for the purchase say about this? you want it documented and incorporated into the sale so there is no question what the condition is, where responsibilities lie, and how it should get paid for/negotiated into the price. everything else is just bullshit arguments over the internet.

Post 16 gs smith said call uponer. I was confused by that statement Im not trying to argue about any thing . I never implied any company is going to pay for it.
I wouldnt pay thousands for a scientific report but thats me and Im interested in all your views.
the seller also has the option of telling buyer ok you found a concern take it or leave it, or Ill give 1000 dollar credit or whatever they agree on. The buyer is aware of this problem and if he accepts house its his baby.
It might be worth just repipng rather than bring in a team of experts, scientists , and lawyers. Btw I didnt know which company produced the parts