New Whole House Carbon Filter & Water Softener

[ditttohead]

LOL, the guy with the Can is going to take apart the valve and replace a bunch of bad parts...??? Serious?

Go with who you want, a 10 year warranty... they had to come up with something to make their knock off equipment sound better.

If you know mountain bikes, The Can is a Huffy, the Clack is a Cannondale. Off road bike... Can = pepboys, Clack=Honda, I could go on, but I think you get the point.

If you really want the Can, I have several test units here I would be glad to part with for dirt cheap...

 

[lepa71]

I of the issues I have is the space. Here is some images to show you what I have to deal with.
My current tank is 8x44 just to give you guys perspective it was working fine for last 13 years but in the last 2 water does not get soft anymore. The CAN guy has no problem getting me WS1

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Bannerman]

You could move the laundry equipment further to the left, closer to the laundry plumbing connections. That would then free-up space for the softener and brine tank, between the laundry equipment and water heater.

Suggest raising the drain tubes. particularly the softener, off of the floor. Raising with a 2X4 would provide an airgap between the floor drain and the tube openings to prevent possible cross contamination if the floor drain should ever back-up..

 

[lepa71]

I can't move laundry to the left too much because there are shelf above brine tank. I also can't go higher than 48" toll softener. That is why clack guy would put 9x48 tank with 1 cuft resin and CAN/Clack guy want to put 10x48 tank with 2 cuft fine mesh resin, bigger internal distributor tube and do "slow rinse" to reduce channeling and "escape filter". "escape filter" for preventing escape of media.

I thin now you see my dilemma and the softener guys have to work with.

Any other ideas? Should I ask CAN/Clack guy to not add catalytic carbon at all to the media, because I'm on the city water( BTW our city does not use chlorine and use something similar instead)? I know you guys are saying that softener needs to be properly sized. How much over fill of media can somebody do in softener(example put 1.5 cuft in 8x48 tank where it should only have 1 cuft?

 

[Reach4]

Any other ideas?

Brine tanks can be moved a significant distance if you have space elsewhere.

 

[lepa71]

I don't have more space anywhere and I don't want to put it in the garage. I don't have a basement in my townhome.

Thanks

 

[Reach4]

Your space is limited. Your time may not be so limited. Your old softener used to be somewhat adequate. You might want to try cleaning the old controller. Is that a Fleck 5600 Econominder (or not)? Econominder is the demand-driven vs the time scheduled softener. There are manuals, videos and parts available. http://www.softenerparts.com/Fleck_5600_Valve_and_Parts_s/30.htm is one source of info and parts. A search engine search will find more.

If I were to try that, I would have some nitrile gloves, Q-tips, and silicone grease. As I disassembled, I would take pictures to help reverse the procedure. I would clean injector, screens and whatever. I would reuse seals and O-rings that do not look damaged (very non-pro of me). I would very lightly lube the seals and O-rings as I put things back together. If I found a bad O-ring, I would take it to the store and try to get a replacement of the same size. If I found something broken that I could not replace, I would either continue shopping or order the part and leave the softener in bypass.

After reassembly, I would turn off the bypass. I would do a cycle and monitor that the brine got sucked out and got replaced with water. If the cycle looks good, I would add 3 or 4 more gallons of water to the brine tank, and let it sit for 3 hours. Then I would do another regeneration (with the one-time extra brine) to try to revive the resin.

If you have a lot of iron in your water and softener, you can take extra action with maybe Super Iron Out. Otherwise, just cleaning may do it.

If things get significantly better but not good enough, you could consider replacing the resin. 8% crosslink on well water and 10% on heavily chlorinated city water. Lightly chlorinated? One or the other.

 

[lepa71]

Thank you for your ideas. I have this unit for 15 years now. I can get one guy to replace seals, resin and some other parts in the current tank for $125-$150. When I installed this I was single, but I got married 9 years ago and now we have 3 people in the family. Also In-laws come to stay for couple month in the winter. That is why I said we have 3-5 people. I feel I need bigger unit, but limited by space. I hope to get a water quality as good as possible in my case/limitations.

 

[Reach4]

I can get one guy to replace seals, resin and some other parts in the current tank for $125-$150.

Too cheap.

Seems worth a try, unless this is a bait and switch.

 

[Bannerman]

Resin alone would likely cost about $125/cuft + install. Seal, Spacer and Piston kit for a 5600 is listed as $54.00 + install.

I couldn't see a meter assembly on the rear of the 5600 so it appeared to be a time clock initiated version.

As previously stated, 2 cuft is the minimum size recommended for 3 people with your water hardness.

Tank sizes are generally appropriate for only the quantity of media they are intended to contain as the media bed needs to expand during backwash. A tank for 1 cuft of resin is 9" X 48" whereas for 1.5 cuft is 10" X 54" & 2 cuft is 12" X 52". Two 1 cuft softeners in parallel is one option to reduce height but would be higher cost and require more floor space.

The small amount of catalytic carbon that the one dealer suggested adding to the resin tank, would be too little to be of benefit. Chloramine (chlorine and ammonia) is more difficult to remove than chlorine alone and so would require a large quantity of catalytic carbon in a separate tank the size of a softener to effectively remove/reduce the Chloramine level.

Suggest relocating the shelf so the laundry equipment can be moved over to make space for the softener.

 

[ditttohead]

Fine mesh resin in not typically a good idea. As to your space limitations, am I missing something? Looks like you have plenty of room for a system of adequate size. The brine tank can handle the larger system assuming it is a 14"x14". If not, then you can get an 11x11 with a grid to accommodate the larger system size. You will only lose some salt storage capacity. You old system is the timeclock Fleck 5600, a truly bulletproof system but not overly efficient.

 

[lepa71]

@dittohead Where would you put it? Could you laid it out for me? One thing to remember, by MN code, front of water heater and water meter, which is behind the current tank, cannot be blocked. There are no water pipes on the left side of the washer and dryer and even if I remove shelf, move washer and dryer I would have re-do all plumbing to get pipes on the other side of water heater. I just don't see how it would help me. I can get away with 10x48 tank for minerals because of the air tube coming from humidifier.

I do want to say one thing that I really appreciate you guy are trying to help me.

 

[lepa71]

@dittohead
Why do you think that clack EE version is better?

This is what I got from a clack guy.
"THe EE control needs to be programed with an estimated reserve capacity to have an estimated days worth of water in reserve to provide soft water from whenever the last gallon of soft water was used until 2AM when it can recharge. The Ws-1 5 button control will automatically make this calculation based on the last 60 days of stored data."

 

[ditttohead]

The EE used to lack that functionality, it now has it. It is also fully programmable for the cycle settings.
If you can fit a 10x48, you may want to check out a system with a 12x48" tank. This is a common size tank and you only gain a slight increase in the diameter but nothing on the height.

 

[lepa71]

Coming from 8x44 to 10x48 is already big so I don't know if I could do 12x48.

Can I overfill 10x48 with 2 cuft or not?
Talked to CAN565 guy. He said he has no problem putting new regular WS1 as he does not have EE version. He had couple left, but does not sell them as much as he does CAN565s. He explained that he is going to put 10x48 tank with 2 cuft of fine mesh resin so he can feet more and have filter installed (there is a name for it, but I didn't catch it) that would prevent for media to escape. I have read somewhere that it is possible to do.

@dittohead
What is this valve? http://www.discountwatersofteners.com/water-softeners/on-demand-softeners/genesis-softeners.html
Is this Canature?

 

[lepa71]

Can somebody explain to what exactly is wrong with CAN565 design wise? Please.

 

[Bannerman]

Fleck, Clack and Autotrol design their own valves which utilize high quality materials and have a long established history of reliable service, parts availability and support through a variety of water treatment professionals around the world. They typically remain in service for 25+ years.

Many of the imported controls, are seemingly copies of the most popular Fleck and Clack models although parts may not be interchangeable.

Some of the imported valve's quality is sub-par whereas with most, reliability remains unproven. After-sales support and parts availability is also not yet established and it is unknown is if service will be offered by anyone other than the dealer currently selling them. What if that dealer is no longer around?

If in 10 years, the valve needs to be serviced, will it be worthwhile fixing it or will it be necessary to replace the entire valve?

Dittohead is familiar with the model you are favoring. He indicated that it is better quality than most imports. Buy what you want.

 

[lepa71]

I still have some unanswered questions.
Can I overfill the tank let say 10x48 with 2 cuft fine mesh resin?

Dittohead said in 2012 is that CAN valves are decent valves and now it's 2016. I'm pretty sure they improved even more. I do see that Canature group has a different business model than clack. They push sale throw installer shops. I do see that Canature claims to be more efficient, but I'm looking for explanation how. Being in computer business I know that the company controls QA in parts produced in China. What reduces the cost is labor.

If in 10 years, the valve needs to be serviced, will it be worthwhile fixing it or will it be necessary to replace the entire valve?

Who know what is going to happen in 10-15 years. There will be newer technologies for sure and may be I would be able to overcome my limitations.

Some companies ride on their name like Culligan. I'm pretty sure their parts are done in China.

 

[Bannerman]

The tank capacity matter has been addressed previously. Dittohead has since suggested a 12" X 48" tank and advised against Fine Mesh resin, as did I.

The issue of efficiency is a matter of programming, which has also been discussed within this thread.

While none of us know for certain what will occur in 10 years, in this matter, we can only rely on past experience. Fleck, Clack and Autotrol all have a well established history including support for their products.

Many items and components are manufactured in China, Apple products included. The design, specifications and standards for an iPhone are established by Apple who oversee the product's quality standards as their proprietary product. If you have an issue with your iPhone, you deal with Apple, not with FoxConn who is the manufacturer/assembler in China.

There are plenty of cheaper iPhone knock-offs made in China. Do you think those knock-offs have the same quality, capabilities and support as a genuine iPhone?

You do not need the approval of anyone on this forum. You asked questions and were provided answers, some of which it seems you do not like. Proceed to buy what you want.

BTW, Culligan is not a brand that is commonly recommended on this forum.

 

[lepa71]

BTW, Culligan is not a brand that is commonly recommended on this forum.

That is exactly why posted it as example. I do can tell you that Lenovo beats Dell in it's quality and it is fully Chinese company and I still believe that Canature valves are assembled in US.

Just FYI, I'm leading towards Clack, but now in our fast paced era you can rely on only past stats. Is there a docs somewhere that shows water usage by clack ws1 and/or ws1ee?

I did check my current settings and mine is at 6 lb. Which I think is not right with my current family size and water softener size.