New homeowner - well not working

[Bannerman]

The aluminum armor on BX cable is not in itself considered a reliable ground conductor. While the pump control box may be detected as being grounded back to the switch/fuse box which is further grounded to the main electrical panel, without an actual grounding conductor within the BX cables, there is no reliable connection to ground.

 

[Mandinca]

Plenty of margin. The AIM manual Table 47 calls for greater than 500,000 ohms for a used pump wired into place. They call for a megger (high voltage ohmmeter). Their spec is more stringent than my 100,000 number.

Anyway, your insulation is in good shape.

Next you could check the currents 1 and 5 seconds after you turn on the power. Then turn off the power with that handy switch as you think about the results.

OK, I'll have to get the meter back that I used to measure the current last time....or just go to Harbor Freight and buy one. Those individual wires are close together, won't that affect the reading if I hook the clamp around each wire separately when testing ? If so, I "could" extend each wire for testing purposes.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Valveman]

Close to other wires is OK. It will only measure the one going through the middle.

 

[Mandinca]

OK, so I bought a Harbor Freight meter - AMES CM600A for anyone that's interested.
I set it to the highest amperage setting, 600A, and tested each of the wires as they are visible below the control box when the cover is on - see picture below.

Each conductor, I clamped the clamp around the wire and with the breaker on at the panel, the flipped the isolation switch. After each test I noted the results and flipped the isolation switch back off before moving to the next conductor.

Results were as follows :

Black - 3.2 Amps pretty much constant and after several on / off tests using the isolation switch.
Red - This varied, mostly had a zero reading but occasionally (2 out of 10 tries) I got a reading of approximately 3 amps.
Yellow - This was all over the place. Each test started high then went to 3 amps - examples :

11-3
14-3
16-3
7-3

It's also probably worth noting that when I tested the voltage at the control wires coming from the isolation switch I tested across the black and white at 230V. Should I have tested each conductor to a ground instead ?

I hope one of you can make sense of this

Thanks again

 

[Valveman]

A 1/2 HP motor should be drawing 5 amps. 3.2 amps tells me the pump is running but not pumping any water. Either the well is dry, the pump is worn out, the inlet screen or impeller is clogged, or maybe a stripped spline or broken shaft. Zero amps would mean the motor is not running. 5 amps with no water would mean a big hole in the pipe. Any higher than 5 would trip the overload.

 

[Mandinca]

A 1/2 HP motor should be drawing 5 amps. 3.2 amps tells me the pump is running but not pumping any water. Either the well is dry, the pump is worn out, the inlet screen or impeller is clogged, or maybe a stripped spline or broken shaft. Zero amps would mean the motor is not running. 5 amps with no water would mean a big hole in the pipe. Any higher than 5 would trip the overload.

So I gather then that everything points to an issue with the pump, or maybe the pipe leading to the pump, rather than the electrics. Another probably redundant question.....when I look down the well shaft I can see the water level about ten feet down, maybe fifteen. Presumably that means the well isn't dry.
Where would the overload be located, on the pump ? I don't see anything by any of the other components, and presumably it's not tripped anyway.
With all that said, I should pull the pump, inspect the pipe, inlet screen, impeller - then look into the pump spline, shaft etc ?

You said "zero amps would mean the motor isn't running" - so - is my motor running, or at least trying to but is broken, leaking pipe etc ?

 

[Reach4]

You said "zero amps would mean the motor isn't running" - so - is my motor running, or at least trying to but is broken, leaking pipe etc ?

Not leaking pipe. Well not dry. That leaves you with "the pump is worn out, the inlet screen or impeller is clogged, or maybe a stripped spline or broken shaft."

 

[Mandinca]

Thanks for the quick reply. Looks like I'm pulling the pump this week, or even today if I can convince my neighbor to help me on a 90 degree and humid father's day I'll post my findings.

 

[Mandinca]

I was able to pull the pump today and separate it from the motor. It's a Grundfos 1/2 HP.
Before I separated it I turned it on and could see the shaft spinning. The pump was trying to pump water as there was some coming from the pitless valve out in the yard....approximate 165' away. It was really only dribbling out, no kind of pressure worth mentioning. I had to cut the plastic pipe to separate the pump from the motor and it was full of water so presumably the check valve was still working.
Having separated the pump from the motor I got it on my bench and disassembled it.
Each section had a small vent around the bottom that was clogged with silt, almost like tiny chips of plastic or something. The pictures of the cartridges - are they supposed to have some sort of impeller on the top and they've simply disintegrated with age ?
Here are some pictures. I cleaned it up a bit before taking them.

 

[Reach4]

Here are some pictures. I cleaned it up a bit before taking them.

We don't see your pictures. Try looking at this page with a different computer to see what we see.

 

[Mandinca]

Can you see this ?

 

[Reach4]

Can you see this ?

Yes.

 

[Valveman]

Looks like it is just clogged up. Can you show a pic of the bottom of an impeller? I doubt there is anything wrong with the pump, just needs cleaning.

 

[Mandinca]

That would be nice if that's the case. I tried something different with pictures, a google photos album link. Hope it's ok to post url's here.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/uhLCVbM6GyaFEbFd9

Presumably cleaning will require removing everything from the slots in the "sandwiched" plates, what would you recommend I use as this gunk is pretty tough to remove.

 

[Valveman]

Good pictures. Yeah everything still looks good. You have to be careful because the fumes can be dangerous, but I use to dip and wash those Stainless Steel parts with muratic acid. I had a big vent hood and fan to work under. It made them look like new. Then I would soak them in baking soda to neutralize the acid and clean it up. CLR or chlorine might also work, depending on what the crud is. As long as you don't mess up the rubber seals or bushings it will be like new again.

 

[Mandinca]

I used the muratic acid although it was "consumer strength" so it wasn't really up to the task. 4 hours later, it's as good as I can get it.
A few tests before hooking up the pitless adapter and the pump is producing water. Too good to be true ?.....It is.
There is no water (and I mean none at all) coming into the house and yet the well level has dropped significantly, which leaves me to believe the underground pipe may be ruptured. The water has to be going somewhere.....
Before I give up on this, does anyone have any suggestions.
The only thing I can think is to back-flush the pipe from inside to see if I see anything coming out of where the pitless adapter connects. Other than that.....I've got no other ideas.


I'm probably not going to try to dig up the pipe, far too much work.

 

[Reach4]

Sorry to hear it. Do you know what kind of pump you have down there? If so, you could look at the current. If the pump is delivering a lot of water into a leak, the current would be relatively high. If it is not pumping water, the current would be relatively low.

If you turn off power to the pump, does the water level rise?

 

[Valveman]

Pull the pump up a bit, set the pitless half on the edge of the casing and turn the pump on. If you have good water there, the leak is between the pitless and the house. Many times it is right outside the well where the pipe attaches to the pitless.

 

[Mandinca]

Valveman, Reach4, I'll answer both of your comments here.

It's a Grundfos 1/2 HP 230V 3 wire pump according to the tag on the pump unit. The motor part was not labeled. I removed the pump from the motor and took it apart, washed each "cartridge" with muriatic acid and cleaned out as many of the passages as I could before blowing them out with compressed air. I then re-assembled everything and put the unit back in the well and turned it on. There was no water coming into the house and the water level had dropped about 20'. I then disconnected the hose between the pressure switch and the tank and turned the pump back on to see if I could hear anything in the now open pipe. Nothing, not a sound. I thought that maybe the pipe was blocked and that the drop in water level was just the pipe priming but when I went outside the water level had disappeared completely leaving me to believe that the pump was working and pumping the water into a leak somewhere.
I then turned off the pump, unhooked the pitless adapter and turned it back on again, I had a reasonably steady flow from the pitless adapter so my leak must be between the adapter and the house. I really don't know what to expect that flow to be like but my neighbor seemed to think it was ok.

I slept on it and this morning I decided to try to see if I could poke a wire down the pipe from inside the house to see if I could find some sort of blockage where maybe the pipe was completely severed (since I couldn't even hear gurgling from the open end of the pipe when I listened) . When I removed the hose from the section between where it came up through the slab and where it joined the pressure switch there were some signs of water seeping through the loosened clamp. So I fully disconnected it and turned the pump on (the well is now full again having not been used for two days) and after a few seconds I got some water flowing, at a much reduced rate than I observed at the pitless adapter. I also checked the well and the water level was way down again.

So, I agree with Cary, that the leak is between the pitless and the house...just not sure I want to dig a 4' hole in my yard. With that said, if I were to get some sort of camera in there at the pitless end I could snake it in the pipe to have a look around. My fear with that is that the pipe makes a 90 degree left turn quite soon after it leaves the well and the camera won't go around corners very easily, especially as I can't even reach the hole with my hand to push the camera along the pipe and force it around corners.

I drew a basic diagram of my layout.
A is the location of the tank and the electronics for the well inside the house as well as where the pipe comes up from the basement slab, B is a large tree and C is the well head. The arrow indicates the way the pitless adapter is facing and the dotted line is my "theory" on the route the underground pipe takes.....I really have no idea but that makes sense to me.

Short of using a camera or digging, do I have any other options ?

 

[Mandinca]