Need help with long run water line/tap/meter sizing

[saleenmav]

I apologize for the long post, but I really need additional opinions.
I finished building a house earlier this year and have had issues with low water pressure and volume since day one. I was forced to connect to the county water system by the county, but the issue is my house is 900’ from the meter, two stories and has 59 fixture units. The furthest fixture from the connection is another 100’ away from the house connection and the elevation increase is roughly 20’. At the recommendation of HD Supply, we ran 1.5” HDPE pipe from the meter to the house. The county ran a 1” tap line (about 20’ from main) and installed a 3/4” meter. I’ve fought them from day one regarding the water issues and they’ve insisted that my problem is that we installed too big of a water line, that it should have only been 3/4” or 1” at most. I’ve done enough checking behind HD Supply’s recommendation to know that the county is wrong. I finally convinced the county to upgrade to a 1.5” meter, at my expense of course, but I still don’t have “normal” water flow. I literally can’t run two sprinklers at the same time. I’ve got a rain shower head on the first floor and there isn’t enough water to fill the head. The water from the second floor showers does little more than fall from the shower head. The county insists that the water pressure at the road is more than adequate. I will note that my connection is about 200’ from where this branch of the water line dead ends. What should the proper tap line and meter size be for this system, and should I ever expect it to work properly? Any other suggestions?Unfortunately, the county would not allow me to install a well on my six acre property, so that’s pretty much out of the question as a viable solution. Thanks in advance for your help.

 

[Jeff H Young]

without checking need to know your pressure and it would be good to know how many gpm your getting at the meter then with that info you could figure your size, Im not so sure 1.5 big enough out 1000 foot

 

[Sponsor]

 

[wwhitney]

Do you have a hose bibb or other way to measure the water pressure at or near the meter? It would be good to measure the static pressure (no flow) and the pressure while drawing, say, 10 gpm from the hose hibb (nothing at the house). That will tell you if the problem is on your side of the measuring point, or upstream.

This pressure drop calculator http://irrigation.wsu.edu/Content/Calculators/General/Pipeline-Pressure-Loss.php says that 10 gpm through 900' of 1.5" ID plastic pipe should only drop 3.8 psi. So the long waterlateral isn't the problem per se. But if you have a hose bibb near the house end of the water lateral, you can again measure the static pressure and pressure during a 10 gpm flow, to see if the problem is inside the house or outside the house.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[Reach4]

The county ran a 1” tap line (about 20’ from main) and installed a 3/4” meter. I’ve fought them from day one regarding the water issues and they’ve insisted that my problem is that we installed too big of a water line, that it should have only been 3/4” or 1” at most. I’ve done enough checking behind HD Supply’s recommendation to know that the county is wrong. I finally convinced the county to upgrade to a 1.5” meter, at my expense of course, but I still don’t have “normal” water flow.

Sorry to hear that. Probably money spent with no significant benefit if this is just for a house and a bit of watering. Pressure drops add, rather than being set by the smallest path.

For troubleshooting, it would be nice to have a yard hydrant or two. Hook up a pressure gauge while using water in the house, and you would know if the problem is before or after that point. A yard hydrant can be useful as a source of water too.

Any other suggestions?Unfortunately, the county would not allow me to install a well on my six acre property, so that’s pretty much out of the question as a viable solution.

They want the monopoly.

What is the first spot after the meter that you have access to the water? Your pipe could be crushed or kinked.

What is the pressure at the meter, even if using the number they tell you? How much higher is the altitude at your house? If you have the house on a hill, that could be a big deal.

Measuring altitude with a GPS has inaccuracies, but with multiple readings, it can average out.

OK, here is a much easier test: what is the pressure at your house when you are not using water? That number is not affected by kinks, crushed pipes, clogged filters, etc.

 

[Jeff H Young]

I think something going on and I would do a series of checks starting at meter If he has a tee if not remove the meter and check with a gage but also check flow how many gallons comes out, could be rocks stuck. even the 3/4 meter shoulda flowed more I belive .

 

[Tuttles Revenge]

If you end up finding that the water main simply is low pressure. Look into a water pressure boosting pump. We've installed a lot of the Grundfos Scala II pumps to solve low pressure problems.

 

[wwhitney]

If you end up finding that the water main simply is low pressure. Look into a water pressure boosting pump. We've installed a lot of the Grundfos Scala II pumps to solve low pressure problems.

That's a good option if it is needed

One quick note: wherever you install the booster pump, your total flow is still limited to what you'd get at that point from a wide open pipe end. The booster pump just lets you use flow rate at some higher pressure (depending on the pump seleection), rather than at 0 psi. If you tried to pump greater flow than the wide open/no pump flow, you'd end up drawing a vacuum in your water supply, which is not good. [And which makes me wonder if booster pumps come with some mechanism to prevent drawing a vacuum, I haven't researched them.]

Cheers, Wayne

 

[Jeff H Young]

saleenmav any progress to share . many suggestions I think something else is going on beside to small a pipe, and low pressure but it takes 30 sec to check pressure. plus pressure can vary with demand on water mains

 

[Reach4]

One quick note: wherever you install the booster pump, your total flow is still limited to what you'd get at that point from a wide open pipe end. The booster pump just lets you use flow rate at some higher pressure (depending on the pump seleection), rather than at 0 psi. If you tried to pump greater flow than the wide open/no pump flow, you'd end up drawing a vacuum in your water supply, which is not good. [And which makes me wonder if booster pumps come with some mechanism to prevent drawing a vacuum, I haven't researched them.]

I agree that you don't want a vacuum at the meter, but I could see a permissible vacuum at the pump in some cases. For example, how about a pump located at a house 75 feet higher than the meter? I agree a pump down the hill has some strong advantages. I would put a combination vaccum+pressure gauge on my pump intake.

 

[Jeff H Young]

one thing for sure solve this before backfill. you dont want 1/4 mile of pipe to guess where problem is

 

[WorthFlorida]

1. What is the elevation from the water main to your home?
2. The internal plumbing, what is the pipe type and size?
3. What type of fittings were used if it is PEX?
4. If it is PEX is there a manifold before distribution to multiple fixtures?

 

[saleenmav]

Thanks for the responses thus far. I didn’t receive any alerts so I didn’t realize anyone had responded. I’ll try to touch on some of the questions above.

As for elevation, the meter and entrance to the house is roughly the same elevation. It is a two story home with the second floor about almost 15’ above grade, and then of course the fixture height on top of that.

Everything has already been run and backfilled. Didn’t have much choice as the line had to run alongside the driveway as it was the only way into the property. We also had some delay between getting the water run and getting all the fixtures installed. It took almost three months just to get them to change the meter out.

The meter is up at the road. No tees. Just a direct tap to the main. From the meter the 1.5” line runs straight back to the house where it joins to a 1” main line at the foundation. I believe it is 3/4” pex run throughout the house for the most part, with a handful of 1” lines if memory serves. Compression style fittings. No manifold.

I have a hose bib that is less than 20’ from the water entry into the home. With a short hose and the water on all the way, the water comes out maybe 12” before falling off. Doesn’t seem to be very much pressure. I am trying to find a pressure gauge to stick on that bib, as that’s the connection with the least variables.

The downstairs water, with the exception of the rain showerhead, is decent. Not good, but decent. The furthest upstairs shower, which I just tried again tonight, does not even have water coming out of each hole in the head, so the water there is obviously lacking. The sink in that bathroom is also noticeably weaker than the same faucet downstairs.

As far as pressure at the road/meter, when I asked the “engineer” about it, he told me that there are no issues because the hydrant that’s a couple hundred feet up the road “will shoot water across the street.” The same guy also told me they get complaints from the neighborhood down the road from people saying they don’t have any inside water pressure when using sprinklers or that the second floor pressure is weak. After I brought this up to him when discussing my issues, he backpeddled some and said that their issues were because there was only a six inch main going into the neighborhood. There are maybe thirty homes.

I feel like it’s just enough water with the 1.5” meter and line for a typical single story home. There is a somewhat noticeable difference between the 3/4 and 1.5” meters. However, having to push the water upstairs, and with so many connections, is a little too much for what I’ve got. The house has five and a half bathrooms (dual master sinks and two shower heads), with the typical kitchen connections and laundry room, but also a dog bath/mop basin, upstairs kitchen sink and five hose bibs. It’s quite a bit. Looking at the chart at this website listed below, which references code, it seems as though no matter what size line I ran, a 3/4” meter was never correct for the number of fixture units and the distance from the meter to the home. It also seems like the tap line and meter sizing benefits fall of at about 500’, so even if I were to get them to increase the tap line to 1.5” to match the meter, in theory, it doesn’t appear that I would see much difference.
https://www.plumbingsupply.com/water-pipe-sizing-charts.html

 

[Reach4]

I am trying to find a pressure gauge to stick on that bib, as that’s the connection with the least variables.

Trying how? Maybe order one, and go to a hardware store, or home improvement store, or Tractor Supply, or etc. Having two is good. These things are under $20, and sometimes a lot under.

When you get the gauge(s), there were some specific measurements suggested. If you want to know what happens while you do something, you can take a movie of the gauge while doing that thing. Or enlist a helper to communicate the reading.

If the problem is the 6 inch main being overloaded, expect lower pressure during prime time, and higher pressure in the wee hours of the morning.

 

[Jeff H Young]

Id get some pressure and volume readings at meter and at house . so you have a 3/4 main feeding an 1 1/2 meter?
As for 5 bathrooms a dog sink etc. so if you capped off 3 of those rest rooms and the dog bath it still aint going to work. so dont let that sway your opinion on anyything even though in hindsight a few differances could have been made. you could run a 1/2 inch line 1000 foot and with the water not running your pressure will be the same as a 2 inch. thats why a volume test tells you something (even though it dosent solve problem) if the 6 inch line is too small for all the houses there will be a drop in pressure other wise if a 6 inch line has say 60 psi in it then water is going to flow good unless there is a blockage. complaints by others sounds like an issue. gotta actualy identify the problem a bit better though.
It sounds like a beautiful place to have that much plumbing, and hope you dont have to throw money into a pump or maybe even a tank, but there is a solution lets be sure what the problem is and water company might have responceability as well

 

[saleenmav]

Trying how? Maybe order one, and go to a hardware store, or home improvement store, or Tractor Supply, or etc. Having two is good. These things are under $20, and sometimes a lot under.

When you get the gauge(s), there were some specific measurements suggested. If you want to know what happens while you do something, you can take a movie of the gauge while doing that thing. Or enlist a helper to communicate the reading.

If the problem is the 6 inch main being overloaded, expect lower pressure during prime time, and higher pressure in the wee hours of the morning.

By find one, I meant here at the house. I know I have one because we used it to test the system for leaks during the install. I’ll pick one up at Lowe’s this evening if I can’t find it. I’m thinking back and I think I had in it Hal pressure of around 45psi at the house when we first ran the main line. We just installed a hose bib on the end and then filled the line and let it sit to check for leaks between the meter and the house. Of course, as someone mentioned, my thought os more to water volume being the bigger issue versus pressure.
The 6” main mentioned prior is a separate neighborhood a couple hundred yards down from my connection. The county’s water main runs along the road and they have a six inch line coming off of that and feeding the neighborhood. I’m not actually in a neighborhood, although the county is insisting I am which is why they forced me to connect to county water. I guess someone should tell the church on ten acres next door they are in a neighborhood as well. I’m the only connection off the county water main and that section of line is 1”, originally feeding through a 3/4” meter, but just recently upgraded to a 1.5” meter.

 

[saleenmav]

Well, got the gauge hooked up to the bib closest to the house connection. With nothing on, the pressure is right around 45. If I turn on just the cold water on the dog bath, which is one of the next closest connections, the pressure drops to 40 psi. If I turn on the kitchen sink, it drops to around 38 psi. So that kind of lines up with what I’m seeing.

I did call the water company and spoke to someone different and they said they typically see 45-47 psi at the meters.

 

[Reach4]

Next, try the pressure readings with the same loads while the gauge is on the drain of the WH.

 

[saleenmav]

Ok, I think the first base pressure reading was a fluke, because I’ve tried it again several times and only gotten around 40psi. I redid the same tests at the bib and then at the WH drain. See attached pictures. I also took a video of the upstairs shower and of the hose pressure so you get an idea of what I am dealing with. Thanks again.

 

[saleenmav]

Ok, I think the first base pressure reading was a fluke, because I’ve tried it again several times and only gotten around 40psi. I redid the same tests at the bib and then at the WH drain. See attached pictures. I also took a video of the upstairs shower and of the hose pressure so you get an idea of what I am dealing with. Thanks again.

 

[saleenmav]

Edit: looks like I can’t upload video. I’ll try to stick them on YouTube or something and add a link.