Lots of Calcium

[Boltface]

Warning: Extreme water softener novice here!

First - I'm on a well. Replaced the water heater about six years ago Old water heater was 25 years old and no problems other than two heater element replacements over those 25 years. After about three years on the new heater the lower element burned out, really nasty looking, cracked coming apart with lots of white stuff that I guess is calcium. I've now replaced that element probably four times. The 'calcium shells' as I call them are now up to the level of the heater element.

I used a water softener and neutralizer for about 20 years but as my second well(first well was dry from the start) was going dry I shut the water softener off. The new third well only yielded 0.4 gallons per minute and since I have no other place to drill another well I left the softener off.

The well is 400 feet deep and we've never run low on water but I want to make sure the softener I get is reliable in the sense that it doesn't fail in some way as to run threw my meager supply of water.

Back to the calcium shells. I assume I need a new water softener and since I can't flush the calcium shells out of the water heater I also need a new water heater. So I have this ancient softener(31 years old) which I think should be replaced, not sure about the neutralizer tank.

Info about water usage. Two adults and a 17 year old grandson who lives with us half time. Three bathrooms.

Just got a Hach 5B Hardness Test Kit. Sampled from a cold water line in the bathroom, 13 drops turned it blue. Tested the cold water in the kitchen and it was 14. I thought with all that calcium in the water heater that the hardness would be much higher.

Also one other fact. All this stuff - heater, softener, neutralizer is in the crawl space so the softener needs to be fairly short and easy to work on. The current softener is about 43" tall. To make that fit it's buried 3-4 inches in dirt and extends 1-1.5" above the bottom of the floor joists. The neutralizer tank is about 36" tall, partially buried and I have to put neutralizer in by the scoop.

So at last my questions:
- Does 14g hardness seem reasonable with all the calcium that is produced by the water heater?
- Will the softener get rid of the calcium in the water heater? I'm assuming the answer is yes.
- Should I replace the softener, neutralizer tank and the water heater?
- What brand softener do you suggest and is there one that is no taller than 43"?
- Is there any kind of maintenance that needs to be done on the softener requiring it to be opened up?

If you've managed to stay awake through this lengthy post you are to be commended!

Any help is much appreciated.

 

[Reach4]

You want to test the pH too. That is the reason that you would need a neutralizer.

With 0.6 GPM from your best well, you would seem to be a candidate for a tank/cistern. That would be 576 gallons per day.

I am not a pro, and I have limited experience.

I am surprise to hear about the amount of encrustation.
While a softener would not remove deposits, it would prevent new deposits.
I don't know about that 43 inch thing. I see there is a 10" x 35" 1.00 cu. ft.( 32,000 grains ) softener tank. A Fleck 5600SXT controller adds about 8 inches above the tank. I don't know if a "35 inch" tank is really 35 inches, or if the 35 excludes part of the tapered part.
Without working the numbers, I think 1 cubic ft that would probably be enough capacity.

Have you considered moving the softener into the main part of the house? If no room, maybe you would want to consider an addition to the house. Perhaps you could build a new "well house" that you keep warmed to 33 degrees or warmer. That could house the softener and the new cistern/tank and the new booster pump that the cistern would require.

Or if you want to keep the softener in the crawl space, if the water table is low where you are, maybe consider digging the crawl space deeper. Don't do your deep digging right next to the foundation. Instead you would want to dig where the base of the foundation keeps undisturbed earth for a 45 degree angle down.

Also, do you have orange in your toilet tank? That would indicate iron that you would deal with one way or another.

 

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[ditttohead]

A detailed water test should have been performed after the drilling was complete. Did you have this done? If so, please post the results. You should consider another test if the old one is not current. 13 grains will cause scaling, but there is lot more to it. pH, silica, tds, iron, manganese, etc. All of these are usually included in a good test performed by a laboratory. For water efficiency reasons, I would recommend any Fleck with the SXT electronics. The SXT can be customized easily. Short softeners are easily done but do require a little consideration. There are also some good ways of maximizing the systems capacity in shorter tanks.

 

[Boltface]

Reach - I considered trying to move the water handling equipment to the garage but it's about fifty feet away and in some areas of my it already takes a long time for hot water to get there so this was ruled out. An outhouse for the softener is a good idea but would be too expensive and more importantly 'the boss' would not like it.
Fortunately no orange discoloration.

dittohead - If there was a detailed water test I don't have it and don't recall getting one. If I need to get a detailed report I don't mind doing that. What specific things does the report need to cover get to make sure I'm on the right track?

Thanks for your help

 

[Reach4]

For a 400 ft deep well, the "water check 1 and 2" or "well check" would probably be good . "Well check" includes test for coliform bacteria, so would be better for that. http://www.watercheck.com/products.html http://www.watercheck.com/productpages/wellcheck.html http://www.watercheck.com/onlinestore.html You will not have pesticides etc to worry about from a deep well.

 

[Smooky]

You should take a sample of the raw water to know what you need to do to correct it. I would contact the county environmental health department where you live and have them to do a chemical water sample. If you get the sample bottle from the county and take the sample yourself it only cost about $50.00 .

An acid neutralizer adds calcium to raise the pH so the water is less corrosive. A softener takes hardness out by removing calcium then the water can become corrosive if you remove too much hardness. Normally you would not have both a neutralizer and a softener.

 

[Bannerman]

What are you referring to as a neutralizer? You stated that you were filling it by the scoop. What were you filling it with? Salt?

Water softeners use salt or potassium chloride to regenerate the resin in them. The brine tank for the salt usually is located near the softener. As you did not mention the brine tank but did mention the neutralizer as a 36" tank, I wondered if you are actually referring to the brine tank.

You could install a softener in your garage if that is a suitable location, but leave the water heater where it is presently. The softener and heater do not need to be located together.

Once water is softened, it will not loose softness through a long pipe run whereas heated water will loose too much heat and take too long to arrive so its best to keep the hot run as short as possible.

 

[Boltface]

Sorry for the confusion. I have a neutralizer tank coming off the blatter tank then that feeds the softener. The neutralizer tank was filled with something to get the PH closer to normal. I haven't used it in years so don't remember exactly what it was. Definitely not salt.

The comment about filling by the scoop was just me complaining about lack of space above the neutralizer tank and having to refill one scoop at a time. Ditto for the brine tank.

Is the conclusion that if I have a softener I don't need a neutralizer tank? It would be nice to do away with that.
In thinking about this it looks like if I have all this calcium I wouldn't have an acid PH problem. Correct?

I hadn't thought about putting just the softener in the garage. Will look at that as an option. It would certainly make refilling the brine tank easier.

I started looking to see if I could find a place that could provide a short fat tank. Got one response so far that the shortest tank was 40" with the valve on top of that. I'm going to relook at digging out to see how bad that would be. He said it would be a 40" by 10" tank was the shortest he could provide. Does that sound right?

Thank you for the suggestions and questions. Please continue. I want to get this right.

 

[ditttohead]

Actually, neutralizers and softener combos are very common. Removing hardness does not typically affect pH in a significant manner. Regardless, a water test is where it needs to start.

A 40" tall system is about as short as they get while maintaining any capacity.

You could relocate the brine tank to the garage assuming the distance is not excessive. Depending on a few factors (height variance, water pressure etc), the brine line can be 50-100 feet without too much problem.

 

[Reach4]

Regardless, a water test is where it needs to start.

Bolthead, maybe your county is unusual, but don't be surprised if the county doesn't test for the factors Ditttohead named in reply #3. The county tests are normally aimed at answering if drinking the water can get you sick. I would expect a coliform and a nitrate test from the county. You will get neither from a deep well, so unless your water gets contaminated from the surface, those tests are going to be negative.

It may take over 2 weeks to get results from the time that you order your test kit. You have to receive the kit, collect the test samples, overnight the filled kit, and then wait up to another 15 business days (3 weeks) after the kit is received. http://www.ntllabs.com/comm_hir.html

When you take your sample, I expect the directions will have you rinse the containers with the water being tested. I don't know if they will ask you to sterilize, but if they are doing a bacterial test, the container may come sterile. It may not. Read the directions.

Make sure that the faucet that you collect from is sterile before beginning. Then run the water for several minutes (unless directions say more) before collecting the samples. The sample should be your raw water -- not from the softener or water heater.

 

[Boltface]

Excellent idea about putting the brine tank in the garage. I'll measure the distance and height change tomorrow and post what I find.

Got another response on the shorter tank. They said they could provide a 35" tank with the valve extending another roughly 8". That height would work for me but will the softener work. I thought I read somewhere there is a minimum distance between the top of the resin and the top of the tank. Not sure where I saw that but I don't want a short tank that doesn't work! If anyone can give me some guidance I'd appreciate it.

Again the brine tank in the garage is great. If that works no more crawling under the house dragging a bag of salt!

As far as the lab test on the water if someone could give me a list of the parameters I really need that would help greatly. The link Reach posted must have 15 tests when you get down to purchasing one, none cheap so I want to make sure I get what I need.

 

[Bannerman]

I'm glad you clarified that the neutralizer is actually that. In consideration of your opening comment in this thread, some people previously have made references to equipment they thought they had but was later realized as not what was actually installed. As everyone will comment based on the owner's description of his/her equipment, it is sometimes best to verify early on, what is actually installed.

While Dittohead's suggestion to relocate the brine tank will help you in filling it, leaving the actual softener in the crawl space does not assist with the height restriction for the resin tank and control valve. Installing the softener in the garage will both make it easier to fill the brine tank, and will allow you to install any softener capacity you require as opposed to potentially, too small a unit chosen only as it fits within the restricted space available.

 

[ditttohead]

Agreed, relocating the softener is ideal. If it is not feasible, the short 35" tank can work, but water testing is needed to determine capacity, design, etc.

Here is the test I would recommend. http://www.ntllabs.com/Merchant2/me...NTL&Product_Code=9003&Category_Code=Homeowner

 

[Reach4]

Agreed, relocating the softener is ideal. If it is not feasible, the short 35" tank can work, but water testing is needed to determine capacity, design, etc

I was just light-hearted thinking. At the end of brine draw, the brine line is full of brine, which will resist freezing. Suppose there was a sensor that would cause the brine refill to be to be postponed while there was a hard freeze in progress. Then after 3 hours, suck a little brine back to prepare for the cold night. Or just postpone regenerating until it is warm enough.

I am not actually expecting this to be implemented, since it would only be useful for a very limited group of people and it would add a big complication factor.

 

[ditttohead]

"Brine Fill First" is available on many SXT valves, this would leave the brine line full of salt until the next regeneration. It then fills the brine tank with water with a programmable delay before prior to regeneration.

 

[Boltface]

Dittohead, Thanks very much for the test recommendation. Will order it tomorrow.

I'm rethinking putting the softener and brine tank in the garage. It will require a run of about 65-70 feet. If I can get my handyman to help that's what I'll do. If it were 10 years ago I'd do it myself but the ac unit, ducting and ac drain pipes etc are in the way and that's more than I want to handle.

A basic plumbing question. If I do that long run of PVC do I need a U shaped section to allow for pipe expansion? Since this is just a cold water line which shouldn't change temp that much I would think not but set me straight please.

Today I dug down to find the bottom of the current softener tank to see how tall it really is. The bottom was almost a foot into the ground. I can tell you that trying to dig in compacted clay using a pick axe in a crawl space with various PVC pipes around you is not easy! The tank measured 44.5" bottom to top(bottom of the valve). There was a 3.5" black sleeve on the bottom of the tank so I guess the tank extended to the bottom of the sleeve.
So if I have to leave the softener where it is the tank can be about 44".

Thanks all for your thoughts and recommendations!

More later.

 

[ditttohead]

A lot of variables come into play as to expansion and contraction if PVC pipe. depending on how it is run, many plumbers will leave a little slack in the plumbing, this will usually be adequate for expansion and contraction. Of course follow your local code requirements.
Other ideas that work, but may or may not be necessary...

 

[Boltface]

After some delays the water sample is now in the hands of UPS to return it to the lab.

Back with the results in a week or so.

 

[Boltface]

Finally here are the results of the water test.

First recall that the reason for needing to do something is that I have large calcium deposits in my water heater causing the lower heating element to burn out frequently, eg replaced it today after previously replacing it 6 weeks ago.

I'm on a well, 3 people in the house, will go down to 2 people next year when grandson goes to college. My well only puts out 0.4 gallons/minute so I need to conserve water. Currently I have a 35 year old softener and a neutralizer tank neither of which have been used for years. Since the PH is 8 I assume I no longer need the neutralizer tank.

Please let me know your thoughts, in other words what do I need?

Thank you

 

[Reach4]

I wonder why such test results take so much time. But that is pretty typical.

9.93 grains of hardness. Not so much. No iron, no manganese. This will make for easy softening.

Silica is a bit of a surprise. It makes water spots that you cannot wipe off. Your 23.5 mg/L number is not really bad, but I don't know beyond it.
Barium is within standards, but if you were going to consider RO for drinking, that would be the main motivation IMHO. Cutting down on the silica would be a side advantage.

Nice pH.