Looking for suggestions on new water softener

[Faust Faustiano]

I am currently in the market looking for a water softener, and I have been scouring the internet to find information and determine the right solution for my needs. I have never owned one before, but I do have a RO system under my sink from Perfect Water (Artesian) which has been great, but now we want to add a Softener.


Why:

1. Want to remove hard water stains. We have a few oil rubbed bronze faucets and they look horrible because of the buildup. Plus, our three bathroom showers all have glass that is spotted and difficult to manage.

2. Help prevent pin-hole leaks. We are on our third leak (Cu pipe) in 7 years.


I am located in Orange County and we have pretty hard water @ 22 gpg. Measured with Hach 5-B. Here is a copy of our city’s water report: https://www.mnwd.com/app/uploads/2020/05/MNWD-2019-Water-Quality-Report-web.pdf

Until today, I did not realize that I would require a water softener with a carbon pre filter, as I was told by a water treatment specialist that our Chlorine was high and would damage the water softener over time.


Prior to meeting with a water treatment specialist, I was searching different water softeners, and was eyeing the GE GXSHC40N Smart 40,000 Grain Water Softener. It had some great features like WiFi connect, auto shutoff, salt usage and app notifications. I realize that this is a very inexpensive solution ($649) as compared to other name-brand water softeners.


The water treatment specialist recommended several systems (as he sells many brands), and his prices were between $2600 - $7000 including installation. A few brands he shared were PWP, Evolve and Hague Hydroclean and Maximizer. The Hydroclean was their low end solution. I tried to find some information on Hague’s website but it was very limited.


The water treatment person seemed knowledgeable and informed me about the need for the carbon filter for the Chlorine.


So after the meeting I ended up with more questions which I am hoping someone here may have some information to share.

1. Is the GE Water Softener something I should stay away from? Or do I just assume that is something that I would need to replace every few years?

2. Can I add a pre-carbon filter inline? Or is it better to get a softener with the carbon as part of the unit?

3. Is anyone familiar with PWP, Evolve, Hague systems? Are they considered top end softeners?

4. The specialist said that I would need to have someone come out to service the unit to replace the carbon every 4-7 years (depending on the unit), but I asked if that is something I could do myself, and he basically said no… Is that true? Can I replace the carbon myself in these systems? They mentioned it would be around $500 plus a service fee.

5. Also, when I asked the specialist the size of the system he recommended in grains, he said the high end systems did not measure that. They only looked at cubic feet. But if he was to extrapolate the grains, he said it would be around 25,000. Based on my limited knowledge, it seems that this would be a pretty small unit and may require much more regeneration. The calculation I found online was: Number of People * gpg * 80 Gallons (rough usage per person) * 7 days (frequency of regeneration) = System Size. For me this is roughly 37,000. So would a 25,000 be too small?


My goal is to find a decent system, but I do not know enough and I don’t want to make the wrong decision, or led down a path I do not need to go. Any help would be appreciated.

 

[Skyjumper]

for 3 people and 22gpg a 25k grain system would be on the small side. it would work but you'd have to regenerate every 4 days or so. What size tank did they recommend? I'd go with at least a 10x44 tank (which is a 40k grain system). in reality you only get about 80% of the nominal capacity before you need to regenerate. so figure 32k grains of usable capacity and you can do the rest of the math.

You should be able to get a professional grade 10x44 water softener (with a Clack WS1 or one of the Fleck Valves) for about $1100 installed. It may not have all the wifi bells and whistles, but do you really need that? Probably about the same for the carbon pre-filter. You can replace the carbon yourself if you are handy, many youtube videos out there. If you are not handy then just pay the $500 every 5 years and don't try to mess with it.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Reach4]

5. Also, when I asked the specialist the size of the system he recommended in grains, he said the high end systems did not measure that. They only looked at cubic feet.

In systems that advertise an X grain system, that is not real hardness handling. Instead, take their nominal number, divide by 32000, and you have grains. So for a common softener with a 10x54 inch tank, that would be advertized as a 48000 grain system, but it would usually handle about 32000 to 36000 grains of softening when set up to be fairly salt-efficient. See https://terrylove.com/forums/index.php?threads/help-for-programming-fleck-5810.82673/#post-595983

A cabinet softener can be useful, but you are right to think of them with a limited life. Softeners with separate brine tanks can be readily repaired or maintained.

I don't know the names you are citing. That often means that you will need to go back to that seller for service or parts. That is why the seller likes those... you can't readily do your own maintenance.

You might look through past posts for prior suggestions, and come back with questions.

Usually people figure 60 gal/day/person, but there can be other compensations than should be used. So figuring 80 gpd is not so bad. Do not use softened water for watering plants. Do not waste softened water to rinse your driveway.

For a softener resin to last longer in the face of chlorine or chloromine, get 10% crosslinked resin. A carbon tank before the softener is good, but it does take more space and investment. Plus the carbon media for chlorine removal probably may last as long as 10% crosslinked softener resin in the face of chlorine. Yes, the carbon is cheaper, but changing media for many of us is not as simple as it sounds. I am not a pro.

 

[ditttohead]

The copper damage in OC is very common. In our testing we have found it to be primarily related to the high chlorine/chloramine levels mixed with some low grade copper pipe imported from counties of questionable QC...
You will definitely want to do a backwashing carbon tank ahead of a water softener.

 

[Faust Faustiano]

First, so glad that I found this forum. So much great information. I have been trying to cut through the bull and the mis-information with water filtration. Thank you for providing your feedback, and I have also been making my way through other responses from other members to formulate additional questions.

For now, I want to find a solution that is well known and something that I could maintain myself (the best I can), as I do not want to rely on a company and their "service" agreements.

I have decided that I will most likely go with a Fleck, in fact, I was happy to find that Fleck even has new model that allows for WIFI connectivity and an app (5812 XTRI). I know some people find this overkill, but I am a tech geek. I am still looking at hybrid vs. two canister solutions, but I know I definitely want a Carbon prefilter (still need to determine if I want catalytic carbon or activated carbon based on what I need to filter - Chlorine, chloramines, and also based on that, which resin 8 or 10%)

One of the bigger problems I am having is finding an installer. While it would be nice to pick my own solution and have someone install it, I have yet to find anyone that would be willing to install one. The only problem I can see with the installation is that I will need to run the drain line to the laundry which is inside the house, but at least it is backed up to the garage, so would only need to punch through one wall.

I have talked now to two water specialists, and they both will only install their chosen solutions. I have someone coming for one of the "big box" stores today to see if they can install other solutions and what the cost would be for install.

If anyone has any suggestions on installers in SoCal that would be very helpful!

 

[Bannerman]

If you are not prepared to install yourself, you could hire a local plumber to do so.

A plumber may not necessarily be trained or experienced in water treatment and so may not know how to appropriately program the softener, but this forum can likely assist you with programming depending on the brand and model of control valve chosen.

Chloramine is more difficult to remove compared to plain chlorine. Suggest installing a separate backwashing filter system containing Catalytic Carbon prior to the softener. C-Carbon will utilize both adsorption and catalytic action to remove contaminants. Both methods require sufficient contact time with the carbon media for contaminants to be effectively removed. A relatively small quantity of carbon such as usually contained in a hybrid softener-carbon system may provide an insufficient carbon quantity to provide the contact time needed to effectively remove chloramine.

After the initial programming, a water softener is not a device that usually requires much interaction or oversight so I suspect many who 'must-have' WIFI capability, likely rarely utilize that feature once the initial novelty wears off.

 

[Faust Faustiano]

Just wanted to report back on my adventures with the big box store, Home Depot. Normally, I would not write something negative, but I was very irritated that this was a bate and switch program. For any of you that were thinking about purchasing a Water Softener and having Home Depot install it, please make sure you know what you are getting into. At Home Depot they asked me which Water Softener I was interested in having installed, I told them I was looking at the GE Cabinets (btw, that has changed now based on what I have learned from here). I said I was not ready to purchase, but I would like the free home estimate on what it would cost to install.

When the person arrived they claimed they were from Home Depot, but they had a different business card, which makes sense since I assume that they are a 3rd party contractor. The first thing they said to me was that Home Depot will ONLY install one brand of Water Softener, Puronics. They proceeded to try and sell this to me, which I had no interest.

So if you are not interested in having a Puronics Water Softener installed, do not call Home Depot for any Water Softener installation support.

BTW, I am not commenting on Puronics Water Softeners as I do not know much about them, I am just letting those who were considering to go to Home Depot to have them quote an installation, this would be the only brand they will install - but wont tell you about it until someone shows up at your door.